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Survivors of market disasters: In this disaster, some people actually made money
There is no need to repeat the tragic market. Various historical figures are present, and they all reveal a signal: this disaster is like an earthquake with no warning signs. The victims are everywhere, and the survival is a fluke. But in this disaster, there are still people who make money. If you still have the impression, on August 23 of last year, there was a problem with Amazon AWS 'server in Japan, which caused the products using the region's services to be affected to varying degrees, including the cryptocurrency trading platform. After discovering a problem with Binance using AWS, the user's deposit and withdrawal were suspended, but the trading platform using the Binance Quotation API failed to take timely measures, resulting in loopholes in market makers' strategies. That day, while Bitcoin was still steadily maintained at 10,000 USD, some users bought Bitcoin at a unit price of 0.32 USD, and when there was almost no fluctuation in the market, they used the mistake of the server to add western food for the night. A bottle of champagne. In this disaster after 5 months, some people still use the environment to find a way to survive. Ethereum 0 dollar purchase? A $ 0 purchase of Ethereum happened on March 13. The market plummeted, many mortgagors' positions were exploded, and ETH fell from $ 180 to less than $ 100 without resistance. The decentralized Defi market that depends on the value of ETH is naturally not immune, such as the MakerDAO platform. MakerDAO's borrowing logic is that users over-collateralize ETH to lend USD stablecoin DAI, but when the value of ETH fell rapidly, a large number of loans fell below the threshold and the system had to be liquidated. In other words, the user's loan was not repaid. Mortgage of ETH is also not available. So MakerDAO has a bad debt, the amount exceeds USD 4 million. In order to repay this bad debt, MakerDAO chooses to auction the collateral, that is, ETH, BAT, etc., and uses the stable currency DAI to bid. They need to use the auction proceeds to obtain repay loan. Under normal circumstances, such auctions are not too accidental. The feeding system reports the current price of ETH, and the bidders will probably trade at a price slightly lower than the market price. However, the background of this auction is the market's plunge. The transaction caused investors to intensive operations, which blocked the Ethereum network. It takes far more than usual gas fees to allow the miners to confirm the transfer as soon as possible. According to the browser, on the morning of the 13th, if only 44 gwei is used, the transfer confirmation time on the Ethereum network will take 72958 seconds, which is 20 hours. The MakerDAO debt auction on the Ethereum network has also been affected. The blockage of the network has prevented bidders with low gas costs from bidding in time, which caused participants to bid 0 DAI / ETH to drop the hammer. It can also be seen from the transaction records that the auction of 0 DAI was indeed successful. These lucky bidders only paid a transfer fee of US $ 1 and transferred 0 amount to obtain an ETH worth US $ 122 at the time. These people are undoubtedly fortunate. The external environment helped them to become the only game participants. The exchange of $ 1 for $ 120 and a profit of 11900% was much higher than the odds of players who risked bottom-swinging in fluctuations. However, from another perspective, MakerDAO's auction is to use the DAI obtained from the auction to pay off debts. However, due to network congestion, this situation has caused several free gifts, and MakerDAO's debt repayment is even worse. Pick up goods by luck If it is said that MakerDAO launches the auction, it is a helpless action of the team under extreme conditions. Bidders still need a bit of technical barriers to participate, but there is nothing to worry about, and there is almost no difficulty and cost. On the evening of March 12, investors discovered that the LINK / USDT trading pair of the Binance trading platform experienced a short-term flash collapse and once fell to the bottom 0.0001 USD. What's going on? Twitter netizens then asked Zhao Changpeng about the matter, and the latter's response was a shock. It turned out that someone had already launched the LINK trading pair as early as Binance, that is, on January 16 last year, a low was hung within 8 seconds after the real-time trading was opened. Price list, but it has not been closed because no fool will sell it at this price. Unexpectedly, more than a year later, this pending order was sold "strangely". "At that time we had no price range restrictions. We will not cancel user orders." Zhao Changpeng said that the platform will not deny this order because the operation is completely reasonable. It will not be rolled back for various reasons. In other words, even if LINK has experienced a large decline recently, at the current price of 2.3 US dollars, the profit of this transaction will exceed 2 million US dollars. US dollars, then he instantly won nearly 5 million US dollars. The cost of 100 dollars, the income of 2.4 million dollars, a real profit. In fact, similar examples of this kind of luck are not rare in the crypto industry. Except for Binance and the previous examples, BitMex and OKEx have also experienced similar situations, and more than once. For example, on December 6, 2017, Binance's XRP / BTC trading pair experienced a breakdown of the list. In a very short period of time, the XRP price was oversold to 0.0000002 BTC, which is basically negligible. On January 29, 2018, the price of the ADA contract on BitMEX also fell to 0.00000005 US dollars, which was also nearly 0; another trading platform, OKEx, also saw a large amount of 0.002 USD on January 14, 2018. Case, according to the official statement at that time, "a certain trader" quickly sold a large amount of ETH through market orders within 12 minutes. Interestingly, at the time, some people analyzed that "a certain trader" was actually an official market-making robot, and "a large amount" of 100 million Ethereum was eventually sold for 20 dollars. However, for ordinary people, if you want to encounter this kind of opportunity for leak detection, unless you are bored and place an order in advance, such a price is fleeting, and you ca n’t seize the opportunity simply by hand speed. In fact, at present, many trading platforms have actually adopted corresponding price amplitude filters, which specify the maximum / minimum price range of pending order prices. Oolong trading is very rare. Even if luck hits and catches up, it is very likely that the platform will intervene and the transaction will be rolled back. This situation has not happened before. Only this time, the trader who had placed an order on Binance for more than a year, even if he successfully leaked and successfully withdrew the coin, it can only be said that he hit the Grand Canal. Safe moving of bricks Buying a certain kind of token on a crypto trading platform, and then selling the token to another trading platform, earning the price difference is a moving brick in the crypto circle. Moving bricks has been an arbitrage behavior since the birth of the transaction. It belongs to a very old business. Arthur, the founder of BitMex, who now operates a trading platform, and Xu Mingxing of OKEx, were once members of the army of moving bricks. . This kind of brick moving was the most prosperous at the end of 2017. At that time, trading platforms such as Bithumb in South Korea also called the "Kimchi premium" due to the price difference between other platforms. Moving bricks is a kind of risk-free arbitrage. Players use energy to gain profits, although the single profit is not much. However, with the maturity of trading robots and quantitative trading teams, the spread of tokens between multiple regions or platforms is often wiped out in a matter of seconds. Therefore, the profit margin of manually moving bricks is now very small. Of course, it is not to say that there is no opportunity. Such an opportunity to make money is indeed hidden under the volatile market. "Buy at a low price and sell at a high price, this is simply the most secure way to make money in a plunging market!" Investors are excited about cryptography. Starting at 6:30 pm on March 12, cryptocurrencies have experienced sharp fluctuations, while Binance and Huobi When the bitcoin spread between the three trading platforms and OKEx was the largest, it even reached more than 700 US dollars. The discerning player quickly discovered the opportunity, "For half an hour, I made more than 10,000 with a principal of 20,000 yuan. Such an opportunity is usually not available." Buy and sell orders executed by the above investors at almost the same time, with a spread of nearly $ 450 When it comes to moving bricks, time is money. It is definitely too late to shuttle between multiple trading platforms. Many investors have now transferred the "battlefield" to the platform that focuses on aggregated trading. "The aggregated trading platform integrates the depth of multiple platforms. As long as there is a price difference between supported platforms, users only use One account can be bought and sold on multiple platforms, and it can be operated in a few seconds. "Wu Ling, who seized the opportunity from the extreme market in these two days, made nearly 50,000 by moving bricks in just a few hours. Yuan, the principal is no more than tens of thousands of yuan. It is understood that there are already multiple platforms targeting the aggregate trading business on the market, and the opportunity to move bricks does not often appear, unless similar to the extreme market appearing in the past few days, or some unique tokens, there may be soaring and plunging. Opportunities, as a whole, are not met a few times a year, and they are fleeting. However, whether it is MakerDAO auctions, ultra-low-priced pending order transactions, or arbitrage moving bricks under the new situation, these opportunities to make money are actually small probability and cannot be used as conventional investment methods. These seemingly easy profits are in the end a few people. Many people are trapped in extreme quotes in stuns. Most investors have no assets left on the trading platform overnight. Maybe this also makes many investors lose confidence in the industry, but in fact, in the face of such a market, after finishing our mood, we are more learning from changes. Learn the reasons for this disaster, learn the logic of the main control panel, learn what signals were ignored before the disaster, and prepare for the next time. At the same time, we can also see the development of the industry. For example, when all centralized trading platforms are down, DEX can still be implemented despite various problems. I hope that everyone still has confidence in the blockchain and cryptocurrency industries. Finally, I would like to remind everyone that the recent market changes are unpredictable. Please pay attention to risks and exercise caution.
I started working with bitcoin when I was 21, left my Masters in CS from ETH Zurich and today I have a small crypto hardware company whose only goal is to truly enable mass adoption!
A couple years ago being just another computer geek, I earned my way into ETH Zurich to pursue an MS in CS and at this time was working simultaneously with a Swiss FinTech company that was using "blockchain" technology for their product. Long story short, falling down the crypto rabbit hole, I eventually left this job and my position as an AI research assistant and started working on this little device that is literally the next logical step in the bitcoin payments lifecycle. If mass adoption is to happen -
Anybody in the world, tech savvy or not needs to be able to use crypto as easy as using fiat currency, i.e. instantly and safely.
Stay in control of your funds at all times - not a bank, not an exchange and not some intermediary.
Hardware wallets solve point #2. I loved watching the development of the trezor and their success over the years but funnily enough I was also a drummer touring around Europe with a german band during this time and while going to a bunch of different countries that all had different currencies, me being from a "third-party" country had to convert money from my home country to whatever currency I needed and the rates/deposit time for this was ridiculous. Being an early adopter I still couldn't use crypto as a currency anywhere! My trezor just sat at "home?" keeping my crypto safe. This is exactly why I started working on lastbit. What started off as a simple hobby quickly turned into an elaborate plan and I left my Masters mid-way (Background: I'm Indian - trained to get straight A's all the time but never actually use any of that knowledge. Best decision ever, leaving uni) to work on this full time and over the last year built a few generations of prototypes, learnt how to do business and raised capital (The hard way)! (Building a company is hard, building a hardware company is exponentially harder!) All in all, I worked my ass off to build this little company, team, raise funds and now we're ready to slowly start rolling this out (lastbit.io). I've spent countless hours on crypto subs and it's about time the community started getting involved. No shitcoin, no bullshit, just pure love for all things complex. A very very very short example of the thought process behind this Example: I own 100 BTC. I store it on my ledgetrezor - 1.1 I would never take my ledger out with me casually for a stroll to the coffee shop, it's way too much of a risk. Instead my ledger sits in my drawer collecting dust but I trust my coins are safe at home. (lastbit - Leave your cold wallet long term storage funds at home on a secure encrypted micro-SD card. Take your "hot" but secure spending wallet anywhere - Hodler works wirelessly with a mobile app. NB: Both wallets are on secure elements! Example: Leave 99 BTC at home and take 1 BTC out with you. Worst case, lost your wallet? No problem, backup is at home or 6 different places around the world and nobody can crack your device). 1.1.1 Plus, why would you even take it out? Merchants are never going to buy a new POS terminal to accept bitcoin. Who accepts crypto? *(With this solution - Everyone. The Hodlers' aim is to work with ANY credit card machine in the world and you can pay with crypto without the merchant even realizing you paid with crypto.)* 18.104.22.168 Even if someone did accept crypto, is it feasible to pay with bitcoin today? Waiting 1 hour in line to buy coffee? *(With this solution - Instant transactions over LN)* Leave a comment or PM if you would want to support this, work with us or be a bigger part of this. Any help/feedback is appreciated. TLDR: Left prestigious Masters program to work on crypto project. Turned into company (lastbit.io). Can use help from the community to take this further. EDIT: Thanks for all the comments everyone, that was really quite an overwhelming response. Way more than I expected and a ton of constructive useful feedback from everyone here. Yes we need to work on branding, logo, explaining the project in simpler terms and the name of the device - Hodler clearly isn't the best idea. Some pretty cool suggestions, thanks again! Will continue to keep everyone who signed up, in the loop. As far as everybody asking about jobs/open positions go, we could use an experienced hardware/embedded systems engineer and/or a digital marketing person - We are exploring the possibility of a kickstarter to fund this after the minimal beta and I suppose marketing is imperative for a successful campaign.
Lastupdated2018-01-29 This post is a collaboration with the Bitcoin community to create a one-stop source for Lightning Network information. There are still questions in the FAQ that are unanswered, if you know the answer and can provide a source please do so!
Lightning Network White Paper - The protocol has changed since this original paper, but covers the mid-level mechanics of the Lightning Network with an emphasis on the smart contracts that make it trustless
If you can answer please PM me and include source if possible. Feel free to help keep these answers up to date and as brief but correct as possible
Is Lightning Bitcoin?
Yes. You pick a peer and after some setup, create a bitcoin transaction to fund the lightning channel; it’ll then take another transaction to close it and release your funds. You and your peer always hold a bitcoin transaction to get your funds whenever you want: just broadcast to the blockchain like normal. In other words, you and your peer create a shared account, and then use Lightning to securely negotiate who gets how much from that shared account, without waiting for the bitcoin blockchain.
Is the Lightning Network open source?
Yes, Lightning is open source. Anyone can review the code (in the same way as the bitcoin code)
Who owns and controls the Lightning Network?
Similar to the bitcoin network, no one will ever own or control the Lightning Network. The code is open source and free for anyone to download and review. Anyone can run a node and be part of the network.
I’ve heard that Lightning transactions are happening “off-chain”…Does that mean that my bitcoin will be removed from the blockchain?
No, your bitcoin will never leave the blockchain. Instead your bitcoin will be held in a multi-signature address as long as your channel stays open. When the channel is closed; the final transaction will be added to the blockchain. “Off-chain” is not a perfect term, but it is used due to the fact that the transfer of ownership is no longer reflected on the blockchain until the channel is closed.
Do I need a constant connection to run a lightning node?
Not necessarily, Example: A and B have a channel. 1 BTC each. A sends B 0.5 BTC. B sends back 0.25 BTC. Balance should be A = 0.75, B = 1.25. If A gets disconnected, B can publish the first Tx where the balance was A = 0.5 and B = 1.5. If the node B does in fact attempt to cheat by publishing an old state (such as the A=0.5 and B=1.5 state), this cheat can then be detected on-chain and used to steal the cheaters funds, i.e., A can see the closing transaction, notice it's an old one and grab all funds in the channel (A=2, B=0). The time that A has in order to react to the cheating counterparty is given by the CheckLockTimeVerify (CLTV) in the cheating transaction, which is adjustable. So if A foresees that it'll be able to check in about once every 24 hours it'll require that the CLTV is at least that large, if it's once a week then that's fine too. You definitely do not need to be online and watching the chain 24/7, just make sure to check in once in a while before the CLTV expires. Alternatively you can outsource the watch duties, in order to keep the CLTV timeouts low. This can be achieved both with trusted third parties or untrusted ones (watchtowers). In the case of a unilateral close, e.g., you just go offline and never come back, the other endpoint will have to wait for that timeout to expire to get its funds back. So peers might not accept channels with extremely high CLTV timeouts. -- Source
What Are Lightning’s Advantages?
Tiny payments are possible: since fees are proportional to the payment amount, you can pay a fraction of a cent; accounting is even done in thousandths of a satoshi. Payments are settled instantly: the money is sent in the time it takes to cross the network to your destination and back, typically a fraction of a second.
Does Lightning require Segregated Witness?
Yes, but not in theory. You could make a poorer lightning network without it, which has higher risks when establishing channels (you might have to wait a month if things go wrong!), has limited channel lifetime, longer minimum payment expiry times on each hop, is less efficient and has less robust outsourcing. The entire spec as written today assumes segregated witness, as it solves all these problems.
Can I Send Funds From Lightning to a Normal Bitcoin Address?
No, for now. For the first version of the protocol, if you wanted to send a normal bitcoin transaction using your channel, you have to close it, send the funds, then reopen the channel (3 transactions). In future versions, you and your peer would agree to spend out of your lightning channel funds just like a normal bitcoin payment, allowing you to use your lightning wallet like a normal bitcoin wallet.
Can I Make Money Running a Lightning Node?
Not really. Anyone can set up a node, and so it’s a race to the bottom on fees. In practice, we may see the network use a nominal fee and not change very much, which only provides an incremental incentive to route on a node you’re going to use yourself, and not enough to run one merely for fees. Having clients use criteria other than fees (e.g. randomness, diversity) in route selection will also help this.
What is the release date for Lightning on Mainnet?
Would there be any KYC/AML issues with certain nodes?
Nope, because there is no custody ever involved. It's just like forwarding packets. -- Source
What is the delay time for the recipient of a transaction receiving confirmation?
Furthermore, the Lightning Network scales not with the transaction throughput of the underlying blockchain, but with modern data processing and latency limits - payments can be made nearly as quickly as packets can be sent. -- Source
How does the lightning network prevent centralization?
How would the lightning network work between exchanges?
Each exchange will get to decide and need to implement the software into their system, but some ideas have been outlined here: Google Doc - Lightning Exchanges Note that by virtue of the usual benefits of cost-less, instantaneous transactions, lightning will make arbitrage between exchanges much more efficient and thus lead to consistent pricing across exchange that adopt it. -- Source
How do lightning nodes find other lightning nodes?
Does every user need to store the state of the complete Lightning Network?
According to Rusty's calculations we should be able to store 1 million nodes in about 100 MB, so that should work even for mobile phones. Beyond that we have some proposals ready to lighten the load on endpoints, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. -- Source
Would I need to download the complete state every time I open the App and make a payment?
No you'd remember the information from the last time you started the app and only sync the differences. This is not yet implemented, but it shouldn't be too hard to get a preliminary protocol working if that turns out to be a problem. -- Source
What needs to happen for the Lightning Network to be deployed and what can I do as a user to help?
Lightning is based on participants in the network running lightning node software that enables them to interact with other nodes. This does not require being a full bitcoin node, but you will have to run "lnd", "eclair", or one of the other node softwares listed above. All lightning wallets have node software integrated into them, because that is necessary to create payment channels and conduct payments on the network, but you can also intentionally run lnd or similar for public benefit - e.g. you can hold open payment channels or channels with higher volume, than you need for your own transactions. You would be compensated in modest fees by those who transact across your node with multi-hop payments. -- Source
Is there anyway for someone who isn't a developer to meaningfully contribute?
Sure, you can help write up educational material. You can learn and read more about the tech at http://dev.lightning.community/resources. You can test the various desktop and mobile apps out there (Lightning Desktop, Zap, Eclair apps). -- Source
Do I need to be a miner to be a Lightning Network node?
Do I need to run a full Bitcoin node to run a lightning node?
lit doesn't depend on having your own full node -- it automatically connects to full nodes on the network. -- Source LND uses a light client mode, so it doesn't require a full node. The name of the light client it uses is called neutrino
How does the lightning network stop "Cheating" (Someone broadcasting an old transaction)?
Upon opening a channel, the two endpoints first agree on a reserve value, below which the channel balance may not drop. This is to make sure that both endpoints always have some skin in the game as rustyreddit puts it :-) For a cheat to become worth it, the opponent has to be absolutely sure that you cannot retaliate against him during the timeout. So he has to make sure you never ever get network connectivity during that time. Having someone else also watching for channel closures and notifying you, or releasing a canned retaliation, makes this even harder for the attacker. This is because if he misjudged you being truly offline you can retaliate by grabbing all of its funds. Spotty connections, DDoS, and similar will not provide the attacker the necessary guarantees to make cheating worthwhile. Any form of uncertainty about your online status acts as a deterrent to the other endpoint. -- Source
How many times would someone need to open and close their lightning channels?
You typically want to have more than one channel open at any given time for redundancy's sake. And we imagine open and close will probably be automated for the most part. In fact we already have a feature in LND called autopilot that can automatically open channels for a user. Frequency will depend whether the funds are needed on-chain or more useful on LN. -- Source
Will the lightning network reduce BTC Liquidity due to "locking-up" funds in channels?
When setting up a Lightning Network Node are fees set for the entire node, or each channel when opened?
You don't really set up a "node" in the sense that anyone with more than one channel can automatically be a node and route payments. Fees on LN can be set by the node, and can change dynamically on the network. -- Source
Can Lightning routing fees be changed dynamically, without closing channels?
Yes but it has to be implemented in the Lightning software being used. -- Source
How can you make sure that there will be routes with large enough balances to handle transactions?
You won't have to do anything. With autopilot enabled, it'll automatically open and close channels based on the availability of the network. -- Source
How does the Lightning Network stop flooding nodes (DDoS) with micro transactions? Is this even an issue?
I was tipped Nano, what's next? Congrats on receiving your first Nano tip! The first thing you should do is move your Nano to your own, secure wallet for safe keeping. This will only take 5-10 minutes. -- Setting up your wallet There is a number of wallets available that support Nano but we recommend: IOS: Natrium or Canoe Android: Natrium or Canoe PC/Web: Brainblocks Wallet Remember to carefully store your seed phrase during the wallet signup process. If you lose this seed you may lose access to your Nano. We recommend writing it down in multiple locations for additional peace of mind. -- Withdrawing your Nano from the Tip-bot Now that you have your wallet set-up you will need to PM the tip bot, u/nano_tipper to instruct it on where to send your funds. To withdraw your Nano, you should PM the bot the following:
send [amount of Nano] [your address]
Where the amount is the total value of the tips you have received ( You can PM the bot, "balance" if you do not know this) and the address is your wallet address, which you can find in the wallet app you have just downloaded, usually under "Receive" or "My Account" pages. e.g:
If you have any problems with this step, leave a comment below, visit the tip-bot documentation or official subreddit. -- What to do with your Nano Once you have your Nano in your own wallet, it's up to you what you want to do with it. Like any currency, you can save it, spend it or sell it: ---- > Spending Nano Like any currency, Nano is meant to be spent! and with zero fees & instantaneous transactions there is no better method to buy the products / services you love. Currently there are a number of things you can purchase with Nano, including: Games, gift-cards, hotel stays, in-game currency, gambling, takeaway food and even pay in-store in certain locations. List of stores accepting Nano Alternatively you can signup for Wirex and within 3-5 days receive a Visa debit card capable of spending Nano at any of millions of physical locations or online stores worldwide in which Visa is accepted. How does paying with Nano compare to other popular payment methods?
---- > Selling Nano You may wish to sell your Nano for your local currency (USD/EUGBP etc.) or exchange it for another cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin. This is easy to do and should only take an hour even for someone new to Nano. To sell your Nano for a local / fiat currency, there are a number of services you can use, such as the following: Sell to USD: Kraken, Coingate Sell to EUR:Wirex, Kraken, Bitvavo, Coingate Sell to GBP:Wirex Other: Wirex (AUD, HKD, JPY, CAD) To sell your Nano in exchange for a cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin or Ethereum, we recommend the following: BTC: Binance, Kucoin ETH: Binance, Kucoin USDT: Binance Nollar: Txbit Full list of exchanges -- More information / Need help? For more information and/or help on moving/using/selling Nano, you can turn to the helpful folks on the official subreddit, nanocurrency or the official Nano Discord. --- --- --- What is Nano worth? At the time of posting, 1 Nano = $1.02 USD but you can check the current price here as it will fluctuate over time. --- --- --- What is Nano? Nano is a digital currency for the real world - the fast and free way to pay for everything in life. It features instant transactions, zero fees and is infinitely scalable. Gone are the days of complicated and energy-inefficient transactions - Nano is green and easy to use. --- --- --- What is Nano For Good? Nano For Good is a community-run (initially by three community members) initiative to help better promote Nano, fund Nano-based projects and support helpful community posts. With 45,000 Nano in our fund and over 18,000 Nano distributed & tipped to date. Follow our progress here: https://nanocrawler.cc/exploreaccount/xrb_3cnhdppkx46f9jnagbizhxo84zjfp17tznpcf6x9q47jkujjqbq48aag5fid
Yazom partners with parachute project. Now you can tip or trade ZOM using Parjar tipping bot.
We have Parjar tipping bot added to Yazom telgram channel. It could be used for an instant tipping of ZOM and token exchange between group members. It can be exchanged with any of the following tokens BTC: Bitcoin, BCH: BitcoinCash DOGE: Dogecoin, ERC20s: PAR: Parachute Token 1UP: Uptrennd 2GB: 2GetherBounty AERGO: Aergo AXPR: aXpire BAT: Basic Attention Token BIRD: BirdCoin BNB: Binance Coin BNTY: Bounty0x BOMB: The BOMB BPT: Blockport BTMX: BitMax CVC: Civic DAG: Constellation DGTX: DigitexFutures DNT: district0x ENJ: EnjinCoin ESH: Switch ETHOS: Ethos FTM: Fantom Token HST: Decision Token HYDRO: Hydro KEY: SelfKey MANA: Decentraland METM: MetaMorph MITX: Morpheus Infrastructure Token MYO: Mycro Token NKN: NKN OMG: OmiseGo OPQ: Opacity OST: OST Platform REQ: Request Network RSR: Reserve Rights SNTR: Silent Notary SNTVT: Sentivate SPF: SportyCo USDC: USDCoin WAND: Wand Token WED: WednesdayCoin WYS: Wysker ZRX: 0x YAZOM:ZOM ETH: EthereumLTC: Litecoin #FAQ #WhatIsParJarWhat is ParJar? ParJar is a Telegram wallet and tip bot that works with /tip messages. All tips happen off-chain. All deposits and withdrawals happen on-chain. The bot is entirely fee less. So ParJar takes no fees for tipping, depositing or withdrawing. Normal gas fees (on-chain mining/transaction fees) are charged by the blockchain for withdrawing crypto from ParJar to another wallet since they are on-chain transactions. Make sure to PM @parjar_bot to check out your own wallet on Telegram. There will be buttons in there to check balance, to deposit crypto to your ParJar wallet, to withdraw to another wallet etc. To tip someone, you simply reply to them with “/tip ” to tip them from your own ParJar wallet balance to theirs. For example, "/tip 100 ZOM".Please note, the tip command only works in groups that already have the ParJar bot added. You can see the list of ParJar supported coins/tokens in PM with the bot (@parjar_bot) You can also check price of ZOM in PM with the bot with the following commands: "/priceZOM" (for price in USD) OR "/priceZOM" followed by BTC/ETH/LTC/XLM/XRP/BCH/CAD/EUGBP/PLN/RUB (for price in one of these currencies and this feature is not available yet) To find value of, say, 10000 ZOM in ETH, use the command: "/convert10000 ZOM ETH" in PM with the botTo find value of, say, 10 USD in ZOM, use the command: "/convert 10 USD ZOM" in PM with the bot When depositing ZOM to your ParJar wallet, make sure to initiate a deposit each time in your ParJar (@parjar_bot) and follow instructions. The ZOM should be sent from a wallet to which you own private keys and not from an exchange. JOIN YAZOM CHANNEL https://t.me/joinchat/FycfwlI1-ZPCUZSjUJXOsg JOIN ZOM OTC CHANNEL https://t.me/otc_zom
Tipping Tuesday! (Free Magic Internet Money) Bitcoin Cash is fast and inexpensive.
"We all see and suffer from the recurring global financial crises. If we look at them, they are actually systemic - and fiat is what causes them." "The simple fact that we continuously face so many problems in financial systems - globally and nationally - should be a wake up call." "Some problems of money flows today: rent-seeking through high tx fees, financial censorship (e.g. Wikileaks), cash-in-transit robberies (problem with physical cash), ubiquitous surveillance and loss of financial privacy" "Bitcoin was the result of deep thought on how to improve money" "Bitcoin solves the sound money problem and puts the money back in your pocket in a form that is more real than numbers in an online bank account. As long as you hold they keys, you actually control the money. Not someone else who can change the numbers in your bank account or deny you the ability to earn and spend." "Bitcoin is peer-to-peer money so your money goes directly to the recipient and no middleman can stop that transaction. And most importantly, you are in total control of your own money. The banks can't steal this new form of money from you. For the first time in the history, Bitcoin puts total control of money in the hands of the people." "Bitcoin allows anybody anywhere in the world to send and receive any amount of money with anyone anywhere instantly, basically for free, and it's impossible for your transaction to be blocked or censored or controlled by any bank or government or corporation..." "Bitcoin Cash is Bitcoin. Bitcoin Cash sticks to the original white paper and fulfils Satoshi's vision the best." "Bitcoin Cash can be used by every single person on the planet, 100 times per day, and still cost less than 1 penny each time. And with estimated over 95,000 businesses accepting Bitcoin Cash this year and growing, you can be sure that Bitcoin Cash will become the best form of global money this coming century" It's digital money, and it works really well. If you install a wallet on your phone I can send you some to play around with via the tipping bot. Exchange for Bitcoin Cash Bitcoin Cash personal wallet 200 bits tips with a brand new tipping bot. I love it, so far. BCH Tips EDIT : You need to add your BCH address in your profil or you need to send a pm to bchtips to receive the tip in your personal wallet
Slack log for Ark token's value proposition discussion 16-07-18
Please find below a log of the discussion we had in slack regarding the ark token's value proposition. Some of the community members who happen to be long term holders of ark feel that the ark token's value proposition isn't clearly communicated by the team so they asked about it. I'm posting the entire discussion it here to make a permanent record since slack wipes messages after a while. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- arigard [7:21 PM] Hey team, so I'm curious. Is there any update on a new white paper at all that was being mentioned? I've been holding Ark since it hit Bittrex and I personally don't really have a clear idea about how the token is going to work in the overall picture, or what really the direction is for the project once v2 is out. It feels like things have gone a bit flat recently, are there any updates on direction and what the plan is once V2 is live? Is there any idea about when it might go live? Or how the Ark token will fit into the economy (will it be a gas?). I see a lot of other projects i'm invested in coming up with very clear roadmaps/dates and direction about what they want to be and I still personally feel Ark's message is a little confused and hard to read especially for people who are not coders/developers. rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:22 PM] the roadmap is on the site, arkdirectory.com/kits has nice presentations and other goodies roks0n (deadlock) [7:23 PM] @Matthew_DC mentioned a couple of days ago that he’s preparing several blog posts which should explain most of these @arigard rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:23 PM] the Blog also goes into lots of v2 details Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:24 PM] Hi everyone. rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:24 PM] Ark is Ark, not like Eth with gas, hence no gas. Hey @Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) welcome back Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:24 PM] Hey rob, hi Rok :slightly_smiling_face: roks0n (deadlock) [7:25 PM] Rob, I think he means how everything will be connected with ArkVM etc. similar conversation as the one few days ago (edited) Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:25 PM] It's been a while, but I was head on in the project, sorry for not showing more often. arigard [7:25 PM] Yeah my main question is really I still don't know what will give the actual Ark token value . goldenpepe [7:25 PM] we dont know how the arkvm will work All we can do is wait Doubled1c3 (ArkStickers.com) [7:26 PM] uploaded and commented on this image: bucket.jpg @Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) goldenpepe [7:26 PM] We can make assumptions but that's all they'll be roks0n (deadlock) [7:26 PM] @arigard this was the discussion: https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C2ABRLZB8/p1531422791000216 roks0n (deadlock) definitely, I’m not blaming anyone :slightly_smiling_face: Was just curious if there were any developments in terms of the updated whitepaper because I was reading one of the threads on reddit from 6 months ago where it was mentioned you’re looking to hire someone write it up. Posted in #generalJul 12th arigard [7:26 PM] And I kind of feel this is such a big elephant in the room for people in the long run. roks0n (deadlock) [7:26 PM] click on the link and read from that post on (edited) arigard [7:26 PM] ok Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:27 PM] I saw that there has been some drawbacks with the V2 ? (Not sure if it's exact, I only came a few times and seemed to understand it was so) goldenpepe [7:28 PM] There are just some incompatibilities between v1 and v2 in devnet which is why devnet is currently down rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:28 PM] ArkVM may be unnecessary as more modern approaches to handling contracts are available, one of the main issue is having them be distributed just like the tokens. goldenpepe [7:28 PM] There's a community run v2-only devnet though #devnet_unofficial rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:28 PM] it's more like drawback with v1 arigard [7:30 PM] I mean I've seen a lot of stuff in that discussion discussed over the past year and there still seems to be no concrete answers coming out and that is a bit of worry to me personally. It makes it look like the team doesn't even know. I think most that know of Ark understand it wants to create an easy way to deploy blockchains and work as a platform and have some inoperability options. But the fundamentals of how that work right now seems to be up in the air. In other projects I know what gives those tokens value, but in Ark I don't, so it's hard for me as an investor to really sell to someone else the benefits of the token when there is a big question mark still on it. rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:33 PM] do you know that Ark Deployer has been available for quite some time? arigard [7:34 PM] Yes, that doesn't really answer any questions though. mak [7:34 PM] Ark deployer helps the main chain's business case somehow? arigard [7:35 PM] What gives Ark token actual value? Like what is the reason people need to buy and hold the Ark token? That is my question. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:36 PM] @mak what you're saying is kinda like answering you can use a hammer when asked what a nail do. arigard [7:36 PM] You don't need to buy the Ark token to deploy a chain. You can just do it. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:36 PM] I mean, the Ark Deployer doesn't answer what's the Ark. mak [7:36 PM] @Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) my point was directed towards rob's comment. I think you misunderstood it. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:37 PM] @mak My bad then. I apologize. Blockhunter [7:38 PM] :boogieark9: rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:38 PM] " I think most that know of Ark understand it wants to create an easy way to deploy blockchains and work as a platform and have some inoperability options. But the fundamentals of how that work right now seems to be up in the air." This is why I wrote that.. there is no mystery of how that works. You are mistaken or uninformed. arkenstone [7:38 PM] That's the problem here because team is programming orientated but there hasn't been alot done on business aspect of the token and marketing investor point big view mak [7:38 PM] That only explains the value of the ark codebase not the blockchain though arigard [7:38 PM] I think you seem to be trying to turn the argument in a seperate direction. It's a simple question. What gives the Ark token value. rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:39 PM] The market does. It's on 19 different exchanges. arigard [7:39 PM] Seems like you are being unhelpfully obtuse. I'll rephrase. roks0n (deadlock) [7:39 PM] so one thing that is clear to me is interoperability using ACES, where ARK is used as a “middleman” between two different chains, so if there’s high volume between those chains, it means the volume of ark increases as well .. what I’d like to know is how things will work with arkvm and how it will all work with sidechains (on eth, all the side chains will basically link back to the main chain which will be the one responsible for security afaik?) arigard [7:39 PM] What gives the Ark token value in the Ark ecosystem. Blockhunter [7:40 PM] Vote for Pedro he will make all your dreams come true arigard [7:40 PM] Eth is a gas, Waves is a gas. Ark is... what? mak [7:40 PM] ACES can work with any chains though. Doesn't have to be ark main chain. So I guess tomorrow persona can become the settlement layer for the Ark ecosystem and there's no incentive to stop it from happening. arigard [7:40 PM] ^ roks0n (deadlock) [7:41 PM] Mak, correct but if there are already lots of chains connected between ARK, it will be more appealing to link it through ARK directly Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:41 PM] As I understand it, ACES could be using any given blockchain as the middle man... roks0n (deadlock) [7:41 PM] it doesn’t mean that it can’t be copied tho arigard [7:41 PM] But there are no chains connected through Ark atm That have any real value anyway roks0n (deadlock) [7:41 PM] eth and btc are arigard [7:41 PM] And they can be connected through any Ark clone. bangomatic [7:41 PM] I'd love to hear the Ark team chime in on this discussion arigard [7:42 PM] So anyone can come along and make another chain that can instantly overtake Ark at this present time if there isn't a failsafe reason for Ark to be the defacto currency. rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:42 PM] https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C2ABRLZB8/p1531762883000422 you can't keep saying things like this as if they are true. arigard That have any real value anyway Posted in #generalToday at 7:41 PM Blockhunter [7:42 PM] Interoperability to the moon mak [7:42 PM] "it will be more appealing to link it through ARK directly" Currently Ark is the only mature chain because it's been around longer but the moment persona or some other bridge chain gets listed on an exchange that dynamic is no longer there. So why would you prefer Ark over persona when that happens. That's the question as far as I understand it. (edited) rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:43 PM] Persona has other goals, not duplicating Ark goals Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:43 PM] @bangomatic Hi! arigard [7:43 PM] What current sidechain of Ark has real value/position in the crypto market? Persona? bangomatic [7:43 PM] hey @Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe)! mak [7:43 PM] The blockchain as a transaction medium doesn't care about secondary goals. It still has all the capabilities that Ark has. Colby [7:43 PM] What has value right now? :thinking_face: rob [ Ark Labs ] https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C2ABRLZB8/p1531762883000422 you can't keep saying things like this as if they are true. https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C2ABRLZB8/p1531762883000422 Posted in #generalToday at 7:42 PM arigard [7:43 PM] Ark's ecosystem at present is not big enough to be a reason not to just take the tech and start your own. To think otherwise is ludicrous. rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:44 PM] that's a fine opinion Jarunik [7:44 PM] it is harder than you think :slightly_smiling_face: arigard [7:44 PM] We aren't Eth with multi $100mn + start ups and even if we were, what's currently to stop one of those just overtaking Ark and leaving it behind? Jarunik [7:45 PM] i hope some ark clones get really sucessful to be honest :slightly_smiling_face: Colby [7:45 PM] Same here! Jarunik i hope some ark clones get really sucessful to be honest :slightly_smiling_face: Posted in #generalToday at 7:45 PM Blockhunter [7:45 PM] HODL ROCKET TECHNOLOGY mak [7:45 PM] Same here but then there's no reason to hold Ark over something else arigard [7:45 PM] i hope so too if there is some reason for Ark to always be there at the top considering it's the Ark platform. Colby [7:45 PM] But the thing is that I am wondering, if ark clones get successful, what benefits does it give back to ark Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:45 PM] @Jarunik to create an ecosystem? mak [7:45 PM] Right now we have to consider Ark's value not the other bridge chains arigard [7:45 PM] But if there isn't a reason for Ark to exist at the top, why are we all holding it? Colby [7:45 PM] Haha I think we are all thinking the same :slightly_smiling_face: arigard [7:45 PM] It's a terrible business plan rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:46 PM] the point of BridgeChains is to allow new projects with no access the market a path to them through Ark, and hence gain value. Other blockchains connections are through ACES, such as BTC, LTC, ETH, and more coming.. Persona has a way to trade Ark <> Prs arigard [7:47 PM] What is to stop them from getting their own exchanges in the future and just using Ark as a stepping stone to becoming their own platform operator? mak [7:47 PM] Sure rob, but there's now 10 different projects doing the same and they are faster in development than the ark team is arigard [7:47 PM] ^ Blockhunter [7:47 PM] Ark is the Yoda of blockchain and they need a better catchphrase. Better than ark gives no dates or point click blockchain arigard [7:48 PM] This attitude seems horribly naive if this is the value proposition. mak [7:48 PM] All of us believe in the vision that Ark brought us but I personally am not sure if Ark is the best option to execute that vision in time arigard [7:48 PM] The issue is, we don't know what the value proposition is. mak [7:48 PM] Other projects seem much faster rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:48 PM] if you are into speculation, which it seems you are, then on paper all of your projects with no code are better and have more value than Ark arigard [7:48 PM] That's not true at all. lol. Matthew_DC [7:49 PM] At the most base level, ARK is a common currency token that is essentially automatically compatible with every bridge chain that is built based on ARK and is optimized for transaction volume and throughput to avoid bloat of other mechanisms introduced by the other chains. That is at the most basic level. By holding the ARK token itself, you will be able to enact the functions of multiple bridged chains both issued by our team and others. You will also be able to utilize the ARK chain as a pegged token to many bridged chains but that process will be transparent to users as it will be done behind the scenes without the user needing to do any functions. To think that someone will fork the code and generate a more effective ARK main chain means you have no confidence in the ARK team as the primary developer of the technology itself. In this case, if we are not and someone pushes a better version of the network, then I would argue maybe they SHOULD be chosen. That is the point of a free and open market. Not to mention the potential for registering and providing snapshot hashes to the main ARK blockchain to provide added security measures to a bridge chain with lower security due to lower market share etc, those are just baseline reasons. As I mentioned the other day, at face value, consider this. What brings value to Litecoin or Bitcoin or Doge? In essence, ARK is a more effective currency and base network than all of these aforementioned networks with all of the added benefits being added for additional use cases. roks0n (deadlock) [7:50 PM] will ark based chains be bridged via arkvm? goldenpepe [7:50 PM] They cant be You'd need the VM on both sides Matthew_DC [7:50 PM] I am currently on a conference call and have a lot going on so I can't respond too much. goldenpepe [7:50 PM] You can use AIP11's new tx types to do a sort of escrow between chains though i think mak [7:50 PM] @Matthew_DC Are you saying that the bridgechains deployed by ark-deployer don't have the same features? rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:50 PM] ArkVM is not for bridging chains goldenpepe [7:51 PM] It can be Coinme [7:51 PM] And ICO's that will join Ark in the future will use it for buying their token. goldenpepe [7:51 PM] But both chains will need to be running the VM Matthew_DC [7:51 PM] The ARK main chain will have specific methods of allowing token transfer and utilization between chains to include quasi-centralized methods through aces, decentralized aces based intermediary networks, Time locked transfers, among custom built smart contract like logic built into the core technology itself that doesn't make the network susceptible to the bloat and mis-utilization an vulnerabilities of full VM use. goldenpepe [7:51 PM] (which the main ark chain wont be) mak [7:51 PM] "ICO's that will join Ark in the future will use it for buying their token" Or any other bridgechain that's listed on exchanges @Matthew_DC So will all of the bridgechains, no? I could start an ACES node today for persona and it will have no difference from what you describe. Matthew_DC [7:52 PM] @mak no, we promised ARK would be open source and everything we build for the core ARK blockchain will be open source. arigard [7:53 PM] You can be open source and still protect your value.. Matthew_DC [7:54 PM] The point of ARK from day 1 has been to create a better base layer blockchain technology and protocol for everyone everywhere to be able to use to create anything they can dream up. The ARK token is a core payment layer for the ecosystem including any applications we build ourselves, sponsor, partner with, or support. mak [7:54 PM] It seems like the team's vision for Ark is as a software product only and there's no business plan for the main chain. Which is fine but it's not explained as such. (edited) Blockhunter [7:55 PM] Great to see such active discussions goldenpepe [7:55 PM] I think what Matt is trying to portray is this: A single universal Ark Ecosystem wallet holding ARK that has a nice UI with a list of dapps in the ecosystem You select a dapp You send a tx from the wallet using Ark ----------------Everything below this line is transparent to the user----------------- The Ark transaction has instructions in the smartbridge field The Ark gets converted to dappCoin via an intermediary like ACES (trustful) or a trustless escrow smart contract The intermediary received Ark and uses the dappCoin on the dapp chain to do whatever it is the user wanted to do using the instructions in the smartbridge field The dappchain responds to the request to the intermediary Intermediary sends an Ark tx with the results of the dapp computation/action in the smartbridge field ---------------Everything above this line is transparent to the user------------------- After 8+ seconds, user's wallet shows them the result of their interaction with the dapp bridgechain That's where the value of Ark will come from The Ark coin will be a universal "omni-coin" Matthew_DC [7:56 PM] :this: This goldenpepe [7:56 PM] That will instantly shapeshift into bridgechain coins to interact with the bridgechain dapp mak [7:58 PM] I understand what your point is and I agree it will work but only as long as none of the bridge chains are on an exchange when for example persona gets listed on binance the scenario changes and now either chain can become the backbone of the ark ecosystem arigard [7:58 PM] Yes. We see that. But hypothetically what is to stop a bridged Ark chain from becoming bigger than Ark and then going on to become that gateway? At this point it just seems to be hopium that the Ark network will always be the one people look to. But in one year, or two, or five, it might not be the case. What is to stop Ark being just sidelined if another team come along with develop on what Ark has built and propel it forward and take the mantle? goldenpepe [7:58 PM] What you say will be a problem only if the utility of the dapp coin is greater than the utility of the ark omnicoin Would you rather hold a coin that can do one thing and is forever tied to a single chain arigard [7:59 PM] But in other crypto's an app becoming sucessfull is a benefit. In Ark's network it could be a negative. goldenpepe [7:59 PM] Or would you rather hold a coin that can interact with that single chain and 3232523432 others arigard [7:59 PM] But why can't another coin become an omnicoin? If there are no limitations against it goldenpepe [7:59 PM] Why can't another coin become ethereum? mak [7:59 PM] "What you say will be a problem only if the utility of the dapp coin is greater than the utility of the ark omnicoin" Or if it gives out better staking returns etc like persona because of higher inflation rate goldenpepe [7:59 PM] if there are no limitations against it You can literally go on AWS right now and deploy an ethereum clone chain arigard [7:59 PM] It can, but an ETH token can't oust ETH That's the difference. We are giving people an easy route here. rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:59 PM] do you often think your children should not surpass you? Or is that the hope? Matthew_DC [8:00 PM] Well it's about security, trust, potential vulnerabilities due to added functionality, the ability of the bridgechain team to create interactions and focus on use cases for their token outside of their core use, etc. But that's the point of open and free markets goldenpepe [8:00 PM] There is a solution to your concern @arigard Matthew_DC [8:00 PM] What is to stop someone from being better than Bitcoin? arigard [8:01 PM] I think all these strawman arguments are fun, but they still aren't adressing the issuel goldenpepe [8:01 PM] Instead of having Ark Deployer literally cloning the ark codebase, have it be a turnkey solution to run a layer 2 chain Matthew_DC [8:01 PM] You could go fork Ethereum right now and have an exact copy of the capability of the main Eth chain. goldenpepe [8:01 PM] bridgechain dapps can be "colored coins" that are forever tied to the main chain arigard [8:01 PM] Yeah but you wouldn't have those businesses on the chain. goldenpepe [8:01 PM] but that would introduce bloat Matthew_DC [8:01 PM] So you are saying the utility of Ethereum is adoption. arigard [8:01 PM] And those businesses won't have the potential to become the main ETH. Matthew_DC [8:01 PM] Which is the case for the value of any token. goldenpepe [8:01 PM] @arigard It sounds like you want ark to become Ethereum Plasma arigard [8:02 PM] I just want an answer. Matthew_DC [8:02 PM] How many companies are pulling their ERC20 tokens off of Ethereum because of the issues? Colby [8:02 PM] Yeah but correct me if im wrong goldenpepe [8:02 PM] There is no answer that will satisfy what you are asking arigard [8:02 PM] And i keep getting strawmanned. Colby [8:02 PM] Ethereum projects NEED eth for gas Matthew_DC [8:02 PM] We talk to people almost every day that are looking to leave Ethereum. Colby [8:02 PM] Ark is needed for? arigard [8:02 PM] ^ Colby [8:02 PM] This is all I am wondering, where does the ark coin fit into it I love the idea goldenpepe [8:02 PM] @arigard You want ark-based coins to rely on Ark The team wants the Ark chain to not be bloated The solution to this is unironically ethereum plasma and sharding Colby [8:02 PM] but have been waiting for a while to know how the Ark coin will actually be used goldenpepe [8:03 PM] Shards in ethereum are basically "bridgechains" arigard [8:03 PM] Ok, and those teams might be big enough and clued up enough to eventually knock Ark from being the de facto omni coin. That's the worry. If this is in fact the possibility. Then it should be clear. mak [8:03 PM] "You could go fork Ethereum right now and have an exact copy of the capability of the main Eth chain." @Matthew_DC Ethereum has value because all the dapps live on it which is not true for ark arigard [8:03 PM] Because as an investor it worries me, a lot. I don't know where the value of Ark as an investment is 100% right now. Jarunik [8:03 PM] Ark is basically the inverse approach to Ethereum. Eth goes for big one-fits all first and tries to shard ... Ark is creating shards and then combines them goldenpepe [8:03 PM] There is no solution to what @arigard and @mak are saying right now Literally no existing solution Only proposals like sharding arigard [8:04 PM] And all this noise about defensiveness doesn't help. These are legit concerns. Matthew_DC [8:04 PM] When was it not clear that if a company comes along and builds a better more used product it could potentially take over market share? That's how all free markets work. You can't believe in open source and build and open source product without that risk. arigard [8:04 PM] But that isn't the same thing. Ark is literally building THE tools for people to then do that. mak [8:04 PM] @Matthew_DC Just to clarify I appreciate the work you guys are doing but I want to make an informed investment decision about holding the ark token arigard [8:04 PM] As a platform. Jarunik [8:04 PM] yes ... that is the idea how to grow arigard [8:04 PM] if you cloned Bitcoin back in the day you were a seperate currency. Jarunik [8:04 PM] provide good tools for others to create chains arigard [8:04 PM] This is a platform, its totally different. And what we are discuswsing here is who runs that platform. Matthew_DC [8:05 PM] If someone launched an Ethereum chain right now and gained adoption there is a huge potential that all tokens decide to move their ERC20 tokens to the new chain and it becomes the new Ethereum and you have in essence lost all value because Ethereum is not capable of being used on the bridge chain as a currency. ARK maintains it's value if for no other reason than the pegged value to any chain we personally create to include VM chain, token issuance chain, etc. arigard [8:05 PM] If it's built by Ark, does Ark always retain control? if not, why? What happens if Ark ends up building tools for a subsidary project that propels itself above them. Investors will just move to that coin. Matthew_DC [8:05 PM] Because it's an open decentralized system. The problem is people don't actually believe in decentralization if it possibly harms their potential for monetary gain. rob [ Ark Labs ] [8:06 PM] we hope bridgechains get popular because that also means more for Ark in many ways. arigard [8:06 PM] You can be decentralized without being 100% altruistic. It's not mutually exclusive. mak [8:06 PM] @goldenpepe Since you guys claim that there's no solution for this how about I present one which @Matthew_DC can decide if it's useful or not. Make delegate voting for the ArkVM happen on the main chain. So anyone who wants to become a delegate for the VM needs to hold money on the main chain. arigard [8:07 PM] It just seems people are being dogmatic about this. And if this isn't about investment. Why have an ICO? Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] Ethereum being the core chain for all ERC20 token based businesses centralizes the industry in a massive way. Not only is Ethereum itself centralized in the way it's mining structure was developed, but it also is centralized in that if the Ethereum network is compromised, thousands of companies assets and business are now compromised. We don't believe that is the future. mak [8:07 PM] I'm not saying that this should be done for all sidechains. Just for the VM and it will be a special case. Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] We believe in a different business model. That has been at the core of every description and explanation I have given from day 1. arigard [8:07 PM] Ok and that's fine, but my point is this should be made very clear if it's the case. From the team officially. goldenpepe [8:07 PM] @mak now you're strawmanning me Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] Where is it not clear? goldenpepe [8:08 PM] I was addressing the fact that the idea that bridgechains shouldnt be independent and should be tied to Ark being in conflict with the Ark team's idea that the main chain should not be bloated with dapps The only plausible solution to that right now is Ethereum Plasma Sharding yokoama (thefoundry Delegate) [8:09 PM] Sharting mak [8:09 PM] "We believe in a different business model." I respect that. But it changes the ark's value proposition to just being a source of funding to the ark team and a means of speculation. goldenpepe [8:09 PM] Shards in ethereum are like bridgechains but the coins are all erc20s that rely on ethereum Matthew_DC [8:09 PM] People said ARK's DPoS mechanism would be a failure when we changed the voting structure because they said it wouldn't be secure enough. It has turned out to be massively secure compared to the centralized cartel run solutions of other DPoS chains. This is another fundamental issue where we believe we have a model that will work and will create value and thousands of use cases for the ARK token in a seamless way for the average user. goldenpepe [8:09 PM] and the shard blocks dont interfere or bloat up the "main" eth chain mak [8:09 PM] @goldenpepe I'm not suggesting deploying dapps on main chain. Just that the voting should take place there so there is always incentive to keep money on the main chain. Matthew_DC [8:10 PM] At no point did we say ARK was gas and have constantly made sure to outline the differences between ARK and Ethereum. I believe the Eth model is flawed. goldenpepe [8:11 PM] The current ethereum model is flawed If sharding works then it's going to solve a lot of its issues (i dont hold any ethereum btw) arigard [8:12 PM] At no point have we actually had an updated white paper discussing this question in detail, clearly. It's not on the website and if it is it's buried somewhere in a blog post. The fact these discussions keep cropping up is proof of this. nukacolaplease [8:12 PM] I think we don't understand clearly what makes Ark important after the launch of the sidechains, Ark will be only an "exchange token"? The sidechain doesn't need Ark for operating goldenpepe [8:12 PM] +1 on needing a new whitepaper Matthew_DC [8:12 PM] replied to a thread: This is a means of centralization of the network. Instead, by utilizing a form of pegged bridge chains, we can maintain a similar effect without creating centralization and reliance on 1 chain for others to properly function. arkenstone [8:12 PM] I think these things should be clearly written in a new WB and officially made public and promoted goldenpepe [8:12 PM] A new whitepaper would clear up so much FUD pieface [8:13 PM] Yeah I think a new WP is needed for sure arigard [8:13 PM] So don't start going "Oh everybody knows this, it's clear" Show me where on the front page of the website it tells you how the token mechanics will work in the ecosystem? It's not good it being on some powerpoint on a google drive, or hidden in comments in the slack. mak [8:13 PM] I though there wasn't going to be a new whitepaper. arigard [8:13 PM] It needs to be clear to investors how it works, exactly. goldenpepe [8:13 PM] I agree with arigard here I only know what I know because I live on slack Matthew_DC [8:13 PM] The solutions are still in development and there are always opportunities to continue to adapt the model, that's why I have these conversations and ask for feedback regularly, but the core fundamental belief of how open and free decentralized markets should work most likely won't change. arkenstone [8:13 PM] Same here goldenpepe [8:14 PM] The vast majority of ark holders have no idea they just bought bc of the cool red triangle arigard [8:14 PM] Stop playing cute, this is people's money you are asking for. So at least give them the benefit of being honest that there is no inherent business model reason why Ark will be necessary in the future. And let them make their decisions. roks0n (deadlock) [8:14 PM] I agree, it took me months of following discussion on slack and digging around reddit to get information arigard [8:14 PM] With proper information. mak [8:14 PM] replied to a thread: It's centralizing value onto one chain but doesn't bottleneck the ecosystem so I don't see anything being wrong with that. Matthew_DC [8:15 PM] replied to a thread: I'm not arguing with you and I made a clear post here within the last 2 days that our website messaging is shit and needs completely redone. If the ARK network is compromised or the consensus mechanism of the ARK main net is compromised then all subsequent networks reliant on that consensus would be compromised as well. mad4thrash [8:15 PM] In my opinion Ark's value come from (in the future) the fact that by holding one coin I can interact with every bridgechain plus any ACES services Matthew_DC [8:16 PM] So what I am saying is that we have to be cautious of these kinds of decisions and ensure that we aren't inadvertently creating attack vectors to take down partners, businesses, and other industries using the technology. I'm sorry guys, I have to go, but I would love to continue this conversation on Reddit or here at a later time. mak [8:16 PM] "all subsequent networks reliant on that consensus would be compromised as well" ^ Correction: only the VM chain will be compromised since I'm not advocating that all bridgechains should vote on the main chain. Matthew_DC [8:19 PM] In an isolated case, if we can map it out and vet the concept, I'm more than happy to hear it out and have the conversation. Solowatch [8:19 PM] So I think we can all agree an updated Whitepaper is due Matthew_DC [8:20 PM] This is a community project and we are shaping pieces of it together as we continue to build. We have already made changes based on community feedback on many occasions. So I would love to see someone post a proposal to reddit or even as an AIP at some point that we could discuss. Jarunik [8:20 PM] If you write a white paper it will be outdated soon :smile: Solowatch [8:21 PM] Well a V2 whitepaper shouldn’t be outdated soon I don’t care about a V1 or V1.5 whitepaper lol I want a whitepaper for V2 that’s clearly explaining all these concerns that the community has arkenstone [8:22 PM] :this: Solowatch [8:23 PM] I wrote a few questions down that I’ll post in here later today that @rob [ Ark Labs ] asked for. Please add to it if I missed anything once I do. arkenstone [8:23 PM] And I think now it's the time do it. Present it with full package on mainet launch.. (edited) Solowatch [8:23 PM] Or PM and I’ll add them before posting mak [8:25 PM] Anyways thanks for listening and responding @Matthew_DC. Some of us have been trying to discuss this with the ark team but didn't get much feedback until today. arigard [8:25 PM] Yeah +1 arkenstone [8:28 PM] Alot of early investors are getting worried
I was tipped Nano on Twitter, what's next? Congrats on receiving your first Nano tip! The first thing you should do is move your Nano to your own, secure wallet for safe keeping. This will only take 5-10 minutes. -- Setting up your wallet There is a number of wallets available that support Nano but we recommend: IOS: Natrium or Canoe Android: Natrium or Canoe Web: Nanowallet.io PC/Mac/Linux: Canoe Remember to carefully store your seed phrase during the wallet signup process. If you lose this seed you may lose access to your Nano. We recommend writing it down in multiple locations for additional peace of mind. -- Withdrawing your Nano from the Tip-bot Now that you have your wallet set-up, you need to copy your wallet address and PM @NanoTipBot on twitter with following command :
!withdraw [your address]
Check out this youtube video more details : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZPtiXWeMH0 NanoTipBot website: https://nanotipbot.com/ -- What to do with your Nano Once you have your Nano in your own wallet, it's up to you what you want to do with it. Like any currency, you can save it, spend it or sell it: ---- > Holding Nano If you think NANO has awesome technology and might be more valuable in future, you can hold NANO in your wallet. ---- > Spending Nano Like any currency, Nano is meant to be spent! and with zero fees & instantaneous transactions there is no better method to buy the products / services you love. Currently there are a number of things you can purchase with Nano, including: Games, gift-cards, in-game currency, gambling, takeaway food and even pay in-store in certain locations. List of stores accepting Nano Alternatively you can signup for Wirex and within 3-5 days receive a Visa debit card capable of spending Nano at any of millions of physical locations or online stores worldwide in which Visa is accepted. ---- > Selling Nano You may wish to sell your Nano for your local currency (USD/EUGBP etc.) or exchange it for another cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin. This is easy to do and should only take an hour even for someone new to Nano. To sell your Nano for a local / fiat currency, there are a number of services you can use, such as the following: Sell to USD: Wirex, Coingate Sell to EUR:Wirex, CoinFalcon, Bitvavo, Coingate Sell to GBP:Wirex, LBX Other: Wirex (AUD, HKD, JPY) To sell your Nano in exchange for a cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin or Ethereum, we recommend the following: BTC: Binance, Kucoin ETH: Binance, Kucoin USDT: Binance Nollar: Txbit Full list of exchanges -- More information / Need help? For more information and/or help on moving/using/selling Nano, you can turn to the helpful folks on the official subreddit, nanocurrency or the official Nano Discord. --- --- --- What is Nano worth? At the time of posting, 1 Nano = $1.80 USD but you can check the current price here as it will fluctuate over time. --- --- --- What is Nano? Nano is a digital currency for the real world - the fast and free way to pay for everything in life. It features instant transactions, zero fees and is infinitely scalable. Gone are the days of complicated and energy-inefficient transactions - Nano is green and easy to use.
[Giveaway] FreeBits: Lets Increase User Adoption Together. Free Bitcoin For Everybody!
Post any comment below, and I will send you some free bitcoin. Tips have been given to 125 new bitcoiners already before this thread. The thread is located here. If you have any bits, feel free to jump in and help tip people. If anybody has any more info for new bitcoiners, please PM me and I'll be happy to add it. Who am I? B itcoin advocate who wants to help spread love to the community. Currently working near a project called Gems, a social messaging application with a similar goal, to increase user adoption through easy and fluid processes. When I saw this campaign; I couldn't resist supporting the movement. New to Bitcoin?
You can post any comment you want, and I will reply with ChangeTip. ChangeTip will then comment as well, with directions step by step on how to claim your tip.
Choose A Wallet Choose from a client side (located locally on your computephone) or web based (a provider holds your private key). Client side you hold your pirvate keys, giving you full control over your money. Web based wallets can fall victim to being goxxed. Listed are trusted and safe options for a bitcoin wallet.
Want to buy more bits? You can buy bitcoin from direct exchangers, who buy/sell bitcoin directly. Most accept bank transfer, and more recently CC's. You can also use LocalBitcoins to buy bitcoins with cash in person around your location, or cash bank deposits from banks worldwide.
> Circle - Instant, accept Visa & Master, a bank transfer.
> Coinbase - Verification & delay, bank transfer and Visa in further verification.
> LocalBitcoins - Meet in person, or bank deposit (go walk to nearest BoA, etc).
Not new to Bitcoin?
I still have bits for you. Feel free to please leave a joke, comment, insult, burritos, whatever you'd like. Bits are awesome as well, as they will go right back out to the community if you'd like to support that way.
Why am I doing this? To increase user adoption through ChangeTip, and the social platform Gems. I want to give back to the community that helped me and I am apart of, and help others in return. I believe I have aligned goals and visions for adoption between Gems and ChangeTip. This is really to get bitcoin to new people who are interested. Never has it been this easy to ping someone over a few cents. Never has this really been possible on this level. It's very powerful.
> Give back to a great community, and introduce new people to the magical internet funny money we all know and love.
Tip them, save them, spend them, send them -- whatever you want!
Feel free to ask any questions you have about bitcoin.
Want to help out more?
Get more people introduced. Share the link. invite your friends, no experience, all experience, everybody deserves some free bits in their day. Crosspost and let others get the bits they need to start tipping!
I will be tipping one ‘gem’ worth $0.05, or 147 bits. You are being tipped the bits, in bitcoin, these are not the actual Gems tokens.
EDIT: Explanation, this is not an actual 'gem', I should have been more clear. You are being tipped 147 bits, or $0.05 in BTC. I simply assigned the term "gem/gems' to trigger a $0.05 tip, as another creative method of tipping. This price in no way reflects the Gems project or real Gems tokens.
This offer does not expire. Keep em’ comin new bitcoiners. Please upvote so more people have exposure and can get their bits. Please let me know what you'd like to see added. Yes, this will not expire.
Please find below the slack log for discussion relating AIP19 as presented here https://github.com/ArkEcosystem/AIPs/issues/26 I will try to write a blog post explaining in further detail the AIP19 for non-technical individuals however due to current obligations it will be delayed and finish some time in September. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew_DC [3:43 PM] I think AIP 18/19 has some merit and I had a chance to look at it before he published. He gave Francois and I a chance to review the idea as he was hesitant to post it publicly in fear that a competitor might steal it, which I can appreciate. There are a lot of things in there that I find interesting. The proposal in AIP18 makes a lot of sense and would solidify the price discovery and help create a streamlined system for the wallet for token swaps. We can make it intuitive and easy to use. The AIP19 proposal is where I think we all need to slow down and seriously consider both the impact it would have on ARK and what ARK is trying to accomplish, as well as the complications that might arise from the system. For starters, AIP19 turns ARK into a decentralized delegate services network. In other words, Consensus-As-A-Service (CAAS). This is something we actually discussed at Crypti and had a model for, which I believe Lisk is still planning on implementing. That model looks very similar to what Komodo has already tried to implement in regards to storing data on the main chain (hashes) relevant to the sidechain as an added security layer. I'm not sure that solution is the best model and I think there is a major problem that needs solved, which AIP19 is partially trying to address. That problem is the security of early stage bridge chains who have yet to build a strong following. Finding a way to use the "hash power", or in this case, vote based security, of the main chain, is something I've been very interested in and would love to find a proper solution for. What needs to be considered is the impact that the system has on up-time and reliability of the network (for starters). Let's say I'm an attacker and I want to just really hose up the works. If I create a script that moves large chunks of voting wait all over the place consistently for multiple blocks or rounds, how will that impact the delegates assignments, will they all switch to the appropriate network in time, will blocks be missed as the transition occurs, etc. Consider that every 1-2 cent change in price could drastically move delegates between networks and if you couple that with voter swings, you are looking at a lot of moving parts. For all of that complexity, what added security do you really gain? New bridge chains will still be very low on the list for delegates due to price which makes them easy targets. However, for an attacker, it would potentially randomize the order of delegates to a point where it would make it very hard to put yourself in position to take over a network which would add a lot of difficulty to an attack. To try and gauge exactly the amount of votes, the price of the token, and what 27 spots you would need to control would be almost impossible. The complicated part would be smoothing out the delegate transitions in a way that doesn't cause total constant chaos among delegates as votes, prices, and registrations are constantly changing. Imagine 5 years from now if there are 100 bridge chains, some with 101 delegates, some with 501, some with 51, etc. What if someone comes in and registers a network with 1,000,000,000 delegates, does it shut down the system? How does it react? There are a lot of things like that which have to be considered before you can move forward with something like this. I'm not saying it's a bad idea and I think it's a really intriguing use of the system, especially for DPoS, but there is a lot that has to be mapped out. You can't just start coding it and hope for the best. cj (azek) [3:55 PM] @Matthew_DC ++ Matthew_DC [4:12 PM] On a side note, I think that the CAAS model fits directly with the desire to have the ARK core technology power startups and enterprises blockchain solutions while providing a strong avenue for the public decentralized applications to take hold and grow. By keying their consensus and security into one main chain, it does provide added security and allow for a use case other than "currency" for the main net, but it does do it at the cost of some decentralization. Part of why ARK is being developed to allow bridged but separate chains is to avoid one central point of failure (the point of all of this). By making so many systems globally dependent on the ARK main chain for their consensus mechanism to function, you do sacrifice decentralization for security in this case. If the ARK network were to end up with a critical bug or suffer from some kind of attack, etc, it could cause all subsequent reliant network to stop forging as well. This is something we are always thinking about. vdeurzen (blockport) [4:20 PM] joined #trading_altcoins. bangomatic [4:23 PM] order books finally on Delta. :allthethings: Jarunik [4:38 PM] For AIP18 I have my doubts concerning price finding. Free market will likely beat a stable coin formula. I would rather see each token valued individually. Didn‘t analyse the formulas in detail but looks like a weak point. A market based pricing would be more interesting. Blazeron [4:39 PM] why wouldn't it just use the market value automatically? Jarunik [4:39 PM] Because there is none Check persona as example Whats the Ark-Prs market rate? tk0n (thefoundry) [4:43 PM] price is also susceptible to manipulation bangomatic [4:43 PM] polymath making some BIG announcements today. www.twitter.com/polymathnetwork Blazeron [4:48 PM] hmm true, it wouldn't work with very small tokens that aren't widely listed Matthew_DC [5:11 PM] That's the same problem you have right now with any exchange. There are hundreds of tokens you could spike by 200% in 5 mins for like $200 The point isn't whether or not all of his math is perfect or whether or not his formula is even the one that gets used, its about whether or not it is a good idea to create "liquidity gates" for atomic swaps and separately, should they be used for price discovery even if an AIP isn't taken and implemented wholesale, it may provide value through some of the ideas involved Obviously, the system he proposes in AIP19 doesn't work without proper price discovery and some kind of oracle Keep in mind, he specifically proposes a stable coin formula as an example as well as an exponential priced ICO token wherein the creator would be using it as a system to fund an ICO, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't have free market price discovery through some form of order book function. pieface [5:19 PM] Would AIP19 deem the ArkVM chain as not needed anymore? Matthew_DC [5:20 PM] To avoid major shuffling issues it almost makes sense to have a superblock either every round or x number of rounds with a longer block time to allow the delegate system to perform averages on price/position of bridge chains for delegate assignment and allow a longer period of adjustment pieface [5:20 PM] One of the benefits of the ArkVM chain is that you don't have to find delegates to run your chain, AIP19 sounds like it solves the same problem in a different way Matthew_DC [5:21 PM] It would be a completely separate consideration from VM and VM would still be something we want/need Jarunik [5:22 PM] If we need super blocks ... then it will slow down the mainnet the more sidechains we have. Wouldn't it be better to use decentralized ACES? Matthew_DC [5:25 PM] You could probably do it with 1 longer block at the end of each round to allow time for the shuffling. So one longer block every 7 mins or so. That's just a random thought and is something that would have to be tested. In some sense, this system IS ACES, just upgraded to take into account the added features of v2/AIP11 like webhooks, multi-sig, time locks, etc just re-organized into a dex with some form of order book and then used for price discovery Jarunik [5:26 PM] yes ... but it should run outside of the Ark mainnet and just connect to it Matthew_DC [5:26 PM] Well, like I said above, in his proposal, you exchange decentralization for security/valuation Which is one of the considerations (edited) It's the same argument we've been having all along brodinson [5:27 PM] I'd like some extra security and valuation :evil: Matthew_DC [5:27 PM] Do you potentially sacrifice principal for token valuation? Security would be for bridge chains Jarunik [5:28 PM] it will increase the risk for the main chain ... brodinson [5:28 PM] That's fine too right Matthew_DC [5:28 PM] At some point, you have to ask are you just recreating the current financial system with you as the central bank brodinson [5:28 PM] I mean ark being an ecosystem and all Want all that good security stuffs for the bridgechains Jarunik [5:29 PM] I am against Ark being the "master" chain. :slightly_smiling_face: brodinson [5:29 PM] Also extra reasons for a higher valuation can only attract more investors and thus more attention. Matthew_DC [5:29 PM] The more bridge chains that rely on the ARK main chain for security and in order for their applications to work, the more you risk incentivizing collusion and extortion by the delegates and increase their personal power over people's money (edited) Jarunik [5:30 PM] If you do something directly for "high valuation" ... then you will take that profit from someone else ... Who will lose ? brodinson [5:30 PM] Find countermeasures to possible collusion? Jarunik [5:30 PM] Unlikely to work. brodinson [5:30 PM] Maybe some random factors? Jarunik [5:30 PM] Power corrupts Matthew_DC [5:30 PM] I mean, at the end of the day, what he is suggesting, and what AIP19 boils down to, is turning the ARK Main Chain into a decentralized Delegate Marketplace for ARK Bridge Chains. It's a pivot for the purpose of the main chain for sure. Jarunik [5:31 PM] And my point is that a bridgechain not good enough to create a delegate incentive and market is not good enough anyway. Matthew_DC [5:32 PM] The delegate marketplace was always meant to be a completely open free market system where people could find delegates for their bridge chains and make offers/promote their chains, but never force tie-in to the ARK main chain and 100% exclusively rely on it for security and validation. Jarunik [5:32 PM] If the bridge chain does offer utility and functionality ... then it will be no problem to pay the delegates. Matthew_DC [5:33 PM] He doesn't shy away from it in the proposal and outright says that a large motivating factor for the proposal is to create valuation for the ARK token and a use case. Jarunik [5:33 PM] So this kind of ark mainchain market place sounds like a concept to push up "unhealthy" sidechains for higher valuation (similar like shittokens of eth) spghtzzz(ark.party is not a website) [5:33 PM] ARK already has those Matthew_DC [5:34 PM] If it were me personally and only me and I wasn't relying on the ARK token to make me rich and I could make decisions based on my fundamentals and what was right in staying true to the nature of ARK and decentralization, I would whole heartedly say no way. But the delegates decide what happens to the network in the end, not me. vela_nova [5:34 PM] No it sound like a way to incentivize adoption Matthew_DC [5:34 PM] There are lots of driving forces and for many, that driving force is token valuation, whether we like it or not. Having every delegate for every bridge chain be required to register and receive payment on the main chain isn't really adoption in the way we want it. (edited) spghtzzz(ark.party is not a website) [5:35 PM] Marketplaces seem like a good idea, but I think ARKVM will probably stop people from having to delegate every single function they want to create, using tokens and leveraging someone elses blockchain as a service. Jarunik [5:36 PM] we already have a delegate market place ... if you offer good enough incentives and a convincing project ... easy to find dpos delegates. pieface [5:38 PM] Couldn't there be a compromise somewhere? Continue with the Ark Mainchain like now. An ArkVM chain which the Arkcoin is pegged to An ArkDM (Ark delegate marketplace) chain which the Ark coin is also pegged to. (edited) Matthew_DC [5:38 PM] The truth is, a large part of the valuation and use of the token relies on our ability to create easy swapping mechanisms for ARK->Bridge Chains so that we can incorporate easy, simple to use, GUI driven interaction with bridge chains without anyone ever needing to own the other token. That involves ACES or something like AIP18, it involves creating multi-sig and time lock style transactions, that allow the network to use something similar to liquidity gates (for the sake of argument) to allow the ARK wallet or application store to carry out the bridge chain functions with the ARK balance, invisible to the user. @pieface There is nothing to stop someone from creating any possible use case, whether that be a delegate marketplace or 3 or 4 VM focused chains with different flavors and incentives, etc vela_nova [5:44 PM] You can’t expect potential clients to identify a use case, the actors involved, and where that use case starts and ends without some kind of built in framework and enough momentum/adoption to ensure dependability. (edited) Matthew_DC [5:45 PM] This is the tricky part of decentralized business and a decentralized world, you have to come to consensus. It's why there are so many forks out there. If we asked every delegate, odds are it would be split on AIP19 If a potential client hasn't identified a use case then how are they a client? We absolutely can expect a potential client to identify a use case or they have no business. That's step #1. As far as finding delegates, we had always planned a marketplace, just not tied to the ARK main chain in the way described in AIP19. As far as examples and frameworks, we are building out new documentation and have some partners who will be helping us do just that. vela_nova [5:55 PM] It sounds like you’re relying too much on an audience that has already accepted ark as a solution to their needs. That’s problematic when it comes strengthening the ecosystem and encouraging adoption. I look forward to this new documentation though (edited) zebedee [5:57 PM] lol Lisk up 30% , mainnet pump vela_nova [6:02 PM] :shrugs: vela_nova [6:15 PM] So the lisk community is convinced that their resources are dedicated to a productive cause. Maybe we could use some positive speculation too for a change. A little shade is one thing, but y’all are some walking palm trees :palm_tree: up in here. This culture of scrutinizing lisk or any other project but the one one we’re here for is ironically weakening the ark. SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:16 PM] The we already have a market place argument is an inside argument imo. From the ‘outside’ aip19 would sound really nice. While there is some truth in the ‘shitcoin argument’ I feel it almost the same as the ‘bitcoin is used by criminals’ argument Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [6:16 PM] What's the golden horde ? SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:17 PM] Our marketing failed :cripes: Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [6:17 PM] If it was on Reddit, I'm sorry. I don't follow the Reddit much because of the time Ark Tribe takes. tk0n (thefoundry) [6:17 PM] you have marketing? SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:18 PM] @Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) Colby made a really nice introduction: https://medium.com/the-golden-horde-blog/the-golden-horde-announces-ark-delegation-merchandise-business-e3f1a4162a60?source=linkShare-b6b32376193e-1534436290 Medium The Golden Horde Announces Ark Delegation & Merchandise Business After being in the Ark community for more than a year, we have seen a lot of great people coming together and discussing all things… Reading time 6 min read Jul 26th https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1200/1*HOBm_aB5iJ4XUCV5y9Ls7g.png SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:19 PM] replied to a thread: This is really offensive, we should remove tk0n vela_nova [6:20 PM] Ya little too much behind closed doors for my taste. SuperCool (The Golden Horde) The we already have a market place argument is an inside argument imo. From the ‘outside’ aip19 would sound really nice. While there is some truth in the ‘shitcoin argument’ I feel it almost the same as the ‘bitcoin is used by criminals’ argument Posted in #trading_altcoinsToday at 6:16 PM Highjhacker (The Golden Horde) [6:20 PM] replied to a thread: DELETE :angry: arkenstone [6:39 PM] Slack outage This message was deleted. tk0n (thefoundry) [6:41 PM] You can take away my GIFs but you can never take away my freedom :allthethings: SuperCool (The Golden Horde) This is really offensive, we should remove tk0n From a thread in #trading_altcoinsToday at 6:19 PM arkenstone [6:43 PM] This was strange ..was on officia slack .. they said servers were down ..was getting error messages when sending text .. SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:44 PM] Yeah slack was down for me aswell I wanted to ad to my argument that aip19 or a similar solution would make ‘push click blockchain’ a real thing Msk [6:55 PM] joined #trading_altcoins. Matthew_DC [6:58 PM] I had a reply but couldn't post it and now I forgot :shrugs: SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [7:04 PM] Haha I also wrote that a lot smarter the first time mak [7:14 PM] Thanks for the feedback @Matthew_DC. Some of the points you mention up have been brought up in the last week by @skeuo as well. Such as someone changing votes frequently in order to mess with the system and someone creating a chain with 10,000 delegates. For the first problem I suggested that vote recount could happen every few hours instead of every block but it's possible there is a better way to handle this. In the second case I think a bridgechain with so many delegates wouldn't be able to sustain any significant token value since the blockreward would be diminished so much or would be unable to pay out because the liquidity gate ran out of ark. I agree these are technical hurdles related to implementation that we need to consider but I don't see them as critical issues. Regarding your last point i.e someone breaking ark main chain would break the entire ecosystem I acknowledge that it is a concern. Which is why the token economic incentive is useful to make it more difficult to execute a 51% attack on the main chain. On the other hand since the bridgechains depend on the main chain's security for theirs, it makes the bridge chains more secure. In the end I see this as a mechanism design problem where the best approaches can be proven mathematically using game theory and if there's a better way to achieve the same effects then I'd be glad to check them out. Matthew_DC [7:18 PM] You also have to consider the consensus mechanisms and individual components and modules used by bridge chains. A given bridge chain may require a specific set of modules for their applications purpose. In that sense, their node software may be vastly different for providing consensus when compared to the ARK core model. In this case, let's say delegates ABC are providing consensus for Bridge Chain X and after vote re-shuffle, ABC are now required to provide consensus for the use case of Bridge Chain Y. This may require a completely different software package for the node and you have to determine a model for those delegates to not just re-shuffle to new peers for consensus, but also potentially download and implement new modules or entire new packages in order to provide consensus for the given bridge chain to which they are assigned. (edited) Jarunik [7:19 PM] Did anyone check the sidechain forging from mainchain that blockpool is developing? Matthew_DC [7:20 PM] I haven't mike [7:20 PM] I like the proposals but prefer pie's approach of implementing them on bridged chains. The main chain needs to be simple and reliable like TCP/IP. We then build on top of in modular fashion, like adding email and http on top of TCP/IP instead of adding them to it. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:23 PM] @mike the point was to make Ark the reward system, if they're on the bridged chain how would they receive Ark as the token reward for their forging chain? It was also meant as an incensitive for non-forging node, as for now, they're running a node for free. Matthew_DC [7:24 PM] Maybe instead you do a dual voting system that somehow ties into a core delegate market network or the ARK Main Chain that allows for voting on a given bridge chain using a bridge chain ID# and Delegate# and every ARK accounts gets 1 vote per bridge chain and then that holds 60% weight and the bridge chain votes hold 40% and the bridge chain has a mechanism built into their node through a module that pulls votes from main net So you provide additional security without the main net delegates providing consensus so packages aren't an issue and it's not as susceptible to being completely taken down by ark main net going down as a secondary voting system exists (bridge chain votes) (edited) mak [7:25 PM] That was also one of the suggestions that @skeuo came up with but from what I could work up it would have adverse effects on scaling since all main chain delegates now need to have a full node running for every bridgechain in order to know bridgechain only delegates (edited) However if we could provide hard SPV guarantees then maybe it's possible Matthew_DC [7:27 PM] OK, no need to map that out further I think you know what I'm saying on that one and it sounds like it was mentioned. Well, how do you trust any values from any network truly. If you want to vote on a bridge chain, then your wallet has to connect to a relay or node on that network through the same way we do now on ARK no need to download the entire chain necessarily goldenpepe [7:28 PM] How does one provide SPV guarantees in dpos? mak [7:30 PM] the block headers leading up to the required transaction are provided though I'm not sure if the chance of correctness in DPoS is the same as in PoW (edited) Matthew_DC [7:30 PM] Delegates on the bridge chain could still convert and payout forging rewards to main net voters with a little work to the scripts JayCrypto [7:32 PM] You guys need a new white paper Matthew_DC [7:33 PM] Way to break the flow mak [7:34 PM] the main issue IMO would be with main chain delegates accepting the threshold signatures if some of the delegates have been selected only on the bridgechain then the main chain can't know for certain about them without SPV or a fullnode and like I mentioned I don't have the expertise to figure out how reliable SPV is in a DPoS system JayCrypto [7:35 PM] Why does it matter Why can't the nodes run their own delegates (edited) mak [7:36 PM] the bridge chain could either go 100% delegates voted on their own chain or 100% delegates voted on main chain but not a mixture of both JayCrypto [7:37 PM] Why mak [7:37 PM] it would require main chain delegates to run full nodes for all bridgechains not scalable you run into the same situation that ethereum has currently JayCrypto [7:41 PM] I'm not a tech person but I always envisioned ark as bridge chains not connected to main chain but able to communicate with them through arkVM or some aces module. I never thought the bridge chains would need the security of ark. As for ICO, I was under the impression that through arkVM or aces, companies can raise money through ark/Eth/btc... And eventually some arkVM Dex would be available to trade between tokens Matthew_DC [7:41 PM] Maybe I'm being naive here, but why does the main chain care? It's up to the bridge chain to properly implement the dual voting for the added security and to require voting from main net to impact their voting mechanism. Main net should just store a vote value. If it's 60/40 main chain voting to bridge chain voting to determine delegates, then you still have a ton of added security. IF the bridge chain isn't properly implementing it, then people should consider whether or not they really want to put their money into the token/bridge chain. It would require the bridge chain delegates run an ARK node but that's better for us and creates a larger ARK main network by adding more relays. Sorry, maybe I'm missing something and I'm just thinking out loud while doing a bunch of other stuff mak [7:42 PM] main chain needs to approve/disapprove remote liquidity gate transactions based on it's knowledge of current bridgechain delegates Matthew_DC [7:42 PM] I'm not talking about the liquidity gate right now mak [7:42 PM] can't have AIP18 working without it Matthew_DC [7:42 PM] I'm talking about dual voting chains for added security and then we don't need price discovery for vote shuffles JayCrypto [7:43 PM] What's a liquidity gate mak [7:43 PM] @JayCrypto please read the AIP 18 :slightly_smiling_face: https://github.com/ArkEcosystem/AIPs/issues/25 GitHub AIP 18: On chain price discovery using liquidity gates · Issue #25 · ArkEcosystem/AIPs AIP: 18 Title: Token price discovery and creating high liquidity decentralized exchange in the Ark ecosystem using instant crosschain atomic swaps Authors: Moazzam Abdullah Khan Status: Draft Type:... Matthew_DC [7:44 PM] and it provides utility because the voting from main chain provides security to side chain and also potentially if main chain accounts get 1 vote on every bridge chain it provides for additional forging rewards exponentially as the network grows but without adding a bunch of complex activity on the main chain just more voting transactions really mak [7:44 PM] We could make it so that the bridgechain only delegates aren't part of the k-threshold signature for the liquidity gate that way it would work Matthew_DC [7:45 PM] ark tokens wouldn't dilute bridge chain circulation as they aren't actual tokens, but they provide for voting to expand capability and security of bridge chain through their use mak [7:45 PM] but then those delegates are 2nd class delegates that don't share the full responsibility Matthew_DC [7:45 PM] and voters on main chain could be paid out from converted forging rewards Aren't they though? ARK main net provides 100% of security of its main chain and 60% of all bridge chains that implement, bridge chains hold 40% of responsibility which is reasonable but allows for much more expensive 51% attacks if main net votes are being used on bridge chains providing added security for new chains just spinning up mak [7:47 PM] how do you propose we create the threshold signatures to control liquidity gates when the delegates are split like this? Maybe I'm missing something here Matthew_DC [7:47 PM] I'm not concerned at all with liquidity gates right now I'm talking about a system in which bridge chains get added security, main chain gets added utility, by adding very little to main chain bloat and using vendor field then you are back to the idea of just having a decentralized exchange for swaps, atomic swaps, and traditional methods of moving funds between for that matter, any DPoS chain could tie in to the main chain for added security using that method by registering a chain and allowing voting mak [7:49 PM] Let me ask you this then. Do you agree that the bridgechain's delegates should be responsible for handling it's liquidity gate? You have to keep in mind there are potentially billions of dollars worth of tokens stored in them. I think that delegates should be responsible for it because the community trusted them with their votes. Matthew_DC [7:50 PM] just create an atomic swap marketplace mak [7:51 PM] can't have price discovery without liquidity gates though. So there would be no rank ladder to figure out delegate-bridgechain match Matthew_DC [7:51 PM] no ladder necessary no convoluted hot swapping delegates main chain accounts choose who they want to vote for and can register 1 vote per bridge chain mak [7:52 PM] well then you have the same issue of delegates speculating on future token price and negotiating with team to become a delegate too much social friction Matthew_DC [7:53 PM] I disagree. People said our version of DPoS wouldn't work because of social this and that and bribes and blah blah Delegates can't negotiate with the team for votes if the main chain votes outweigh the bridge chain funds 60/40 mak [7:54 PM] Ohh I think it works. Just that there is a lot of unnecessary headache involved which can be taken out completely. (edited) JayCrypto [7:54 PM] @Matthew_DC are you saying that ark holders can vote on bridhechain delegates even though they have no bridhechain tokens? Matthew_DC [7:54 PM] you are creating checks and balances on manipulation by the team in a sense @JayCrypto yes, as an added security measure for the bridge chain to avoid 51% attacks in their infant stages you would essentially have to take over ARK main chain, plus a % of bridge chain tokens to gain control JayCrypto [7:55 PM] Or you could issue 1 trillion of your own tokens Is there a yes no option for this Matthew_DC [7:56 PM] It doesn't matter if % is 60/40 in delegate appointment 60% of weight from ARK main net and 40% from bridge chain net voting mak [7:56 PM] "you are creating checks and balances on manipulation by the team in a sense" I disagree with that assessment. I am creating a decentralized protocol that manages the financial layer across multiple chains. The team should only have to worry about their product and not about convincing delegates to join them by offering rewards outside of the blockrewards. Matthew_DC [7:56 PM] so no matter how many tokens you make, it still holds in the calculation They aren't offering outside rewards of any kind JayCrypto [7:57 PM] Is there a yes no option for this Cos I wouldn't want it Matthew_DC [7:57 PM] They build their product, delegates need to worry about convincing people to vote for them yes or no option for what? mike [7:57 PM] Implementing AIP18 and 19 on a bridge chain would make a lot of sense. It can operate with a 2 way peg to ark even, so delegate rewards would be the same, and convertible to Ark, or let the market decide the conversion rate, or use a liquidity gate. Many of the same delegates would operate on it, as has been the case with Persona. mak [7:57 PM] Eventually it's going to happen. Why would a delegate want to run the 100th chain in the ark ecosystem when it's expected market cap would never reach a million dollars. JayCrypto [7:58 PM] For this 60 034'3!5 thing Matthew_DC [7:58 PM] Why would anyone run as a delegate on any network JayCrypto [7:58 PM] Percent Matthew_DC [7:58 PM] at some point the team has to do some form of work Crypto needs to get away from this entitlement stage mak [7:58 PM] @mike it could be done that way for convenience but it's functionally equivalent to having the voting on main ark chain. Matthew_DC [7:58 PM] if your product is stupid and no one believes it will ever have value and you aren't making any progress or building anything then your network SHOULD die mike [7:59 PM] also, Rob has set up multiple chains to run on the same servers, so lower volume chains can be run very cost effectively. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:00 PM] But then again, even with a great product, starting isn't always easy, so this marketplace of delegate could enable great project effectively. mike [8:00 PM] yes, mainchain voting could be mirrored over to the bridged aip19 chain. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:00 PM] It would reduce risks for delegates too when they actually help a starting project, before they decide if they will run a full delegate on the chain or not. Matthew_DC [8:01 PM] AIP19 doesn't solve the "I don't want to be a delegate on a useless network" problem either why would someone sit in spots 1,000-2,000 and run a node at a loss? same problem mike [8:01 PM] i've never seen a new project having problems recruiting delegates, but they do sometimes have a problem retaining them if interest in the project fades due to failure to execute. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:02 PM] @mike but so far there isn't many projects. mak [8:02 PM] I think you misunderstood my point @Matthew_DC. I think delegates are service providers that get paid to ensure decentralization to your bridgechain. They may or may not provide additional services to remain competitive but that's irrelevant for now. What I'm saying is that we can streamline the back and forth that is required currently to get delegates and keep them running (look at KAPU). Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:02 PM] When the number multiplies, there will be much more to chose from, and this might become another kind of trouble. mak [8:03 PM] However if you don't agree with that perspective then that's fine. Someone will eventually come in and implement AIP19 on their forked chain and we will let the market decide if it's useful or not. vela_nova [8:03 PM] Dunno ark the product can have everything but a driving purpose and still fail economically Matthew_DC [8:03 PM] You just need a central place for delegates to market themselves and their services and for projects to find them Master [8:03 PM] What’s the debate :eyes: vela_nova [8:03 PM] That is why I like what mak is getting at Matthew_DC [8:03 PM] You can do that without massive changes to the ARK Main net JayCrypto [8:03 PM] I'm just shocked that ark bridgechains have to use ark main chain delegates Jarunik [8:04 PM] A normal website is enough as delegate market place. I would have to run different servers for different chains anyway ... no need to integrate delegate operation into one mainchain. Matthew_DC [8:04 PM] And I agree the market should decide so you won't find any argument there. I would love to see multiple models challenge one another because in the end it makes the winner much stronger Jarunik [8:05 PM] More delegate tools that come out of the box and are easy to port over would help though.. :wink: Matthew_DC [8:05 PM] but anyone struggling to find delegates right now, it is most likely because their idea just sucks Jarunik [8:06 PM] Let's first have a good and stable payment solution for all bridge chains without the need for every delegate to code some script himself ... will already make delegate recruitement easier. Matthew_DC [8:06 PM] That's not going to happen. Delegate payouts won't be coded into the network itself by us at any point. Jarunik [8:06 PM] Things like that are much easier to implement and much less invasive. I didn't say that ... Brian already made a good plugin. Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] That I'm fine with Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:07 PM] @Jarunik something like that implemented in the Ark Commander? Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] but no baking it into the network core itself Jarunik [8:07 PM] If that becomes well tested and easy to use ... will help all bridge chains Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] for previously stated reasons Jarunik [8:07 PM] i don't want anything in the core :stuck_out_tongue: i love the bare bone approach of v2 Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] shit guys, I'm really enjoying this but I was supposed to leave 7 minutes ago to take my kids somewhere try to capture some of the convo if you can and post a pastebin link in the github maybe just for the sake of saving it Jarunik [8:08 PM] complex stuff tends to fail too easily mak [8:08 PM] have fun :slightly_smiling_face: I think I've laid out all of my points. It's upto the delegates to decide if the idea holds merit and should be implemented. JayCrypto [8:09 PM] Is this 60/40 thing a slider which new bridgechains can use @Matthew_DC spghtzzz(ark.party is not a website) [8:09 PM] I always thought the ArkVM was meant to address this, if a person who is starting a new bridge does not **need** to change any node code, or **want** to run any delegates they can just create a token. Perhaps I am wrong though. mike [8:09 PM] i think implementing aip19 on a forked chain is best approach, and let market decide. i think there are some very good ideas to try in aip18 and 19, which is the advantage of ark's modular approach. ideas like this can be tried without risking the main chain, or having to hardfork it to add them in. By allowing a token swap or doing an airdrop, ark holders can have a stake in its success if it really does take off. mak [1 hour ago] If there's a 1:1 peg with ark on the new chain then there's no economic incentive for people to hold the new chain. However it will split the votes so it would be easier to attack the new network that's hosting the bridgechain delegate voting system. mak [1 hour ago] So if we want to experiment with it then we can't have the peg there. mike [1 hour ago] so you can mirror the voting from the main chain, just ignore votes for delegates that aren't running on the bridged chain. mak [1 hour ago] At that point is it a different chain anymore?
Hey everyone, UPDATE BELOW: gawt mah munie...1 week and 15 hours later I don't even know if there's a point to writing this here, considering it seems several of the mods seem to be on the payroll, but here we go: I made a deposit into my einstein wallet using my credit card. It seemed like everything went thru properly, but now I don't see any transaction pending in my wallet nor have I even received an email regarding the money that has already been charged to my credit card. I have replied to almost 15 messages here and haven't received a response from any of the users. I have tried reaching them on facebook, twitter, reddit and their chat service to no avail. Maybe it's my anxiety regarding this whole situation of missing money, but this whole exchange and this subreddit are really making me consider calling my cc company and reversing the charge. I'm wondering how many people here have been waiting 24hrs plus (their quoted maximum wait time), and also how long it took total for you to see everything processed. Maybe even a hint at getting their attention? UPDATE 1: I still have not received any confirmation on my order (over 5 days now), the charge is on my card, nothing pending on blockchain or on einstein site. However, I was finally able to get thru to someone by phoning repeatedly and I have some info for those waiting:
If you are having problems because you purchased on credit card: They had a problem on their backend processing ccs and they are in contact with their rep figuring it out.
They told me they are creating a hardcopy ledger of people contacting them and they are ensuring everyone gets the amount they purchased at the rate they bought it at. So if you're missing funds it sounds like this may be your best bet for the fastest processing, but it could just be a business tactic to comfort people.
Try using phone or email, don't bother PM'ing them here, talking to them on Facebook or on their trashcan website chat because it doesn't do anything ([email protected] 1-877-787-6885)
A general uneasiness: These people seem like they have good hearts and are distraught at their service being labelled as a sham. That said, they are irresponsible. They have not stopped selling "instant bitcoin" even though they are having reported delays of up to 12 days according to one redditor and over 4 by many others. Nor are they offering any type of remedy for those of us who trusted we were "buying bitcoin instantly" on credit card (no break on fees, $20 free crypto, literally anything). If you are buying in, I'd recommend moving to a more reputable exchange until they get their shit figured out and drop the "beta" tag.
UPDATE 2: I received BTC in my Einstein account Dec 20th at 1am (approx. 5 days wait total). If you look at the chart you can see how I was cut out of a giant price hike, which would have gotten me into XRP much lower, so I contacted the company (again, this time it was thru Aeverie (very nice and helpful)). *I was told I would get a call back from an office admin (I did, it was Leighton (very nice and helpful)) *Leighton helped me exchange some of my BTC into XRP so that it would lessen the blow of (obviously he couldn't just give me free BTC, but since there was a trade I was interested in making, he was able to give me a better rate (thanks again Leighton)) * I got off the phone with him after that transaction and made my withdrawal to my nano s. *BTC went thru instantly (I think he might have been watching and pushed it thru) *I tested a small amount of XRP which took some time to get thru. (listed as manual entry as well) *I sent the rest of the XRP to my wallet and it took over 24hrs to get it thru (not listed as manual) *And I'm finally out as of this morning around 4am (1 week 15hrs. for "bitcoin instantly"). I'm definitely not going back until after that Beta tag is gone, and if it were gone tomorrow I would be waiting at LEAST six months to a year depending on how crazy this market gets. These guys seem like hard working people who want to scale a business, but they just aren't handling it properly and are being overwhelmed. I know it's hard not to panic, but I believe you guys will get your money; it's probably just going to take some time.
Log of AMA @ ark.io/slack with bitbay.market - @dzimbeck (David Zimbeck), @Munti (Bjørn Alsos)
dr10Let us all welcome team from :bitbay: bitbay.market :bitbay: - @dzimbeck (David zimbeck ) and @Munti (Bjørn Alsos). You can all start asking them questions. I'd ask team from bitbay.market to use @ username to the one they are responding to and I'd like to ask all the community to give them some time to catch up if too many questions in backlog, before asking more so questions don't get lost. Thank you! dzimbeck Hi dr10 Hello Munti Hi dzimbeck Wow you guys have quite the slack. 7k people dzimbeck very professional site too, always noticed that dr10 haha, yeah grew a bit over time dzimbeck Also a decent domain. arigard @dzimbeck Man, I remember you from back in the day in Blackcoin dzimbeck Haha yes that is where I started dr10 okay guys, start with your questions :wink: Munti Is there anyone helping us keep track of any questions we might miss because we are busy answering? dzimbeck But I'm not the dev of Blackcoin dzimbeck I only wrote Halo into it because I needed an alt dr10 I have an eye on the chat and people notice when you didnt answer it, dont worry :smile: dzimbeck and didn't want to start a pump thing tranzer What is BitBay in few words. Are you anonymous marketplace? (edited) dzimbeck Unbreakable contracts, Anonymous serverless markets and rolling peg dzimbeck all of those features are extremely important for decentralization and computer science in general dzimbeck "Unbreakable contracts" is the non-technical term for "Double deposit escrow" dzimbeck It works by both parties placing a deposit in a joint account dzimbeck and if they cheat each other they both lose their funds when the time limit expires dzimbeck making the contract somewhat unbreakable dzimbeck regardless of what is agreed to btcmacroecon what if one cheats the other? dzimbeck since it's a joint account btcmacroecon hunt them down? dzimbeck you need that person to sign off dzimbeck so they lose money dzimbeck they can't cheat you dzimbeck example: dzimbeck you want to buy a guitar dzimbeck which costs 100 dollars dzimbeck so you put up a deposit of 100 and also 100 into the joint account dzimbeck the seller also puts up 100 to guarantee shipping and their own honesty dzimbeck when the seller sends the guitar if you steal it dzimbeck then seller won't sign off on the contract dzimbeck causing both parties to lose money dzimbeck (you just paid 200 for a 100 dollar it) dzimbeck So this forces users to work together dzimbeck better than E-bay with arbiters dzimbeck in fact.. I am shocked this isn't the industry standard tranzer Are there any limits on how much can someone sell or buy item for? dzimbeck I've been doing this for 4 years since BitHalo started Munti When you use double deposit escrow, your protection is based upon the fact that no one can gain anything by breaking the deal. That pretty much eliminates scammers as there is no incentive for them. btcmacroecon what if the seller "says" the other stole the guitar, when in reality it was received, it's jus seller wont sign off on it to be a dick dzimbeck No limits dzimbeck and deposits are negotiable (edited) donze Nice idea ulyssessyoungo interesting dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Because the seller will lose money if he does Munti I actually just bought a property in our marketplace. Got the paperwork in the mail today donze Your market is active? dzimbeck Being a dick doesn't profit a dime donze Or work in progress dzimbeck It actually costs money to be a dick dzimbeck which is what we WANT arigard @dzimbeck is that similar to the two way mad escrow Particl are working on? ulyssessyoungo I like the sound of that dzimbeck we want jerks to be broke dzimbeck we want politicians to be the ones begging for food on the street ulyssessyoungo do you have any system beyond that Munti Our marketplace has been operational since early 2015 ulyssessyoungo to see if people honor the contracts? ulyssessyoungo like user history or something dzimbeck Oh there is tons of systems in BitBay little_round Particl took it from bitbay dzimbeck we actually have a wall of features ulyssessyoungo I mean like ulyssessyoungo say a guy has a history of blowing up contracts dzimbeckhttp://bitbay.market/wall ulyssessyoungo are those people easily identified as bad business? tranzer Do you have numbers of how many people "were dicks" and how much was already agreed upon in your marketplace (like yearly turnaround)? dzimbeck Yes dzimbeck You can see how many contracts their profile has blown up dzimbeck so you can mathematically calculate what their deposit should be! dzimbeck It's like the perfect escrow for p2p transactions ulyssessyoungo that's nice Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face: ulyssessyoungo So like a reputation system? ulyssessyoungo I always check vendor reputations on alibaba, amazon etc. arigard @Munti really? Interesting.. dzimbeck And it's been working for 3+ years it was actually the worlds first smart contracts dzimbeck Yep btcmacroecon is there a scenario when a seller would lose money if it harmed the buyer, even if seller loses money, adversely affecting the buyer, even if guitar received, to cause buyer to lose money? Or woul buyer come out ahead cause of guitar, or would that mean net loss for buyer in this scenario, despite "seller wouldn't do it cause he loses money assumption" dzimbeck we have a reputation system dzimbeck Yes you are right dzimbeck but consider this @btcmacroecon shtand Does the seller always match 100% of the value of what they're selling? dzimbeck The seller does cause buyer to lose dzimbeck but now they have proof they are blowing up contracts dzimbeck who would want to work with that seller later? dzimbeck Also that seller would be asked in future deals for a LARGER deposit btcmacroecon ok and ebay has good marketplace for reputation. dzimbeck meaning being a jerk is progressive;y cost inhibitive dzimbeck And this reputation system there is no way to lie about it Munti @dzimbeck I just noticed we both forget to use @ to make it clear who we are answering dzimbeck because there is cryptographic proof you blew up the funds btcmacroecon ok good to wait for established track record dzimbeck I will use the @ more thanks dzimbeck @shtand Not always ulyssessyoungo eBay is good with the reputation system but not so much the arbitration ulyssessyoungo so that makes me interested in alternatives dzimbeck matching 1:1 is a great way to deal with strangers you don't trust dzimbeck But a great seller might only put up 10% ulyssessyoungo i've been screwed selling some high ticket items on ebay before, not terribly so but enough to make me wonder what the point of a middleman is if they just side with the buyer in most cases dzimbeck exactly!! donze safex will be full anonymous and will give dividends to those who own it, what are the advantages of bitbay other than being ahead in the roadmap? dzimbeck But guys this isn't just buying and selling dzimbeck who here has outsourced? btcmacroecon What about where damage or not represented product as advertised? same thing? comes down to reputation scores? dzimbeck @donze that would be the rolling peg we will get to that arigard Does Bitbay have any anon functionality? dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Realize a seller loses funds for damaged items if blown up. He will be much more motivated to work with buyer than he would be in e-bay dzimbeck BitBays markets are anon Munti @ donze If safex is able to pay dividends, they will need to take that money from somewhere. Fees? We have no fees (edited) dzimbeck because they use Bitmessage dzimbeck and we don't bloat the blockchain dzimbeck because Bitmessage is p2p dzimbeck and no chain is used shtand what's determining who a 'great seller' is and what % they need to match then? dzimbeck thus no servers kimchi ...where does bitbay profit come from? tranzer How is BitBay team being funded? dzimbeck sender is hidden because messages are passed around making it hard to find the origin dzimbeck decoding messages is plausible deniability because nobody knows if you have decryption key dzimbeck (a market is a shared key) dzimbeck @shtand A great seller would be someone with tons of contracts that didn't blow up RQDxRocket joined #trading_altcoins. arigard What about transactions, are they hidden too? Munti @kimchi BitBay in itself does not need profit. The holders of the coin will get their profit from higher value because we gain adoption. and we are years ahead in this race, so should have a decent chance to increase price a lot dzimbeck @kimchi I don't profit much from BitBay. We are mostly self funded moon joined #trading_altcoins. ulyssessyoungo Yeah it's not a centralized service so i don't see why it would need "profit" given that it's just a network btcmacroecon does bitbay have any interest in their service being used with other projects to form a marketplace? any room for collaboration if buyers / sellers can be rounded up for establishing marketplace, reputation, including commodity trading? ulyssessyoungo BAY is POS right? tranzer Is BitBay POS or mineable or what consensus algo does it use? dzimbeck @arigard Transactions aren't anon dzimbeck but I'm a big ffan of zero knowledge proofs dzimbeck There is ways to hide the person broadcasting using Bitmessage dzimbeck but I haven't implemented dzimbeck I'm a purist so if an anon route is chosen later then it will be on a very high level arigard Will you be looking to do those kinds of things in the future? Maybe something like Zerocoin etc? dzimbeck @tranzer POS kimchi When can I see the beta version? Munti @kimchi Also, Double deposit escrow ties up a lot of money, so when marketplace becomes really active , that will have tremendous impact on coin supply (reduced supply because of DDE). An average daily turnover on our marketplace of 1k dollars can create demand for as much as 30k-50k dollars worth of Bay (edited) dzimbeck Maybe a side chain arigard dzimbeck Since the main chain doesn't need to be anon dzimbeck also anon would interfere with the rolling peg dzimbeck Jesus zero proof:heart_eyes: dzimbeck depending on what i choose for it donze What is actual year trade volume of bitbay? Munti @btcmacroecon BitBay is open for working with partners dzimbeck @ulyssessyoungo yeah profit from escrow is not wise since it eliminates the middle man, we would not want the liability dzimbeck also I meant to say earlier dzimbeck these contracts work with employees too dzimbeck so an employee is forced to honor his/her word dzimbeck and employer is forced to pay dzimbeck so no more unreliable outsourcers Munti @donze Trade volume varies a lot like it does for most coins dzimbeck It's been over a million a lot btcmacroecon what do you think about creating a trading floor for commodities, or whatever "product" or "service" say "electronics" or "beer" or "metals" dzimbeck but then it goes down to 50-500k dzimbeck We don't fake our volume dzimbeck :smile: dzimbeck that is why, this is a very organic project dzimbeck You see I used to be BitHalo dzimbeck which was years before Ethereum dzimbeck and was hired on to the BitBay project, the people who hired me disappeared dzimbeck so the community and myself took it over dzimbeck making it pretty organic ulyssessyoungo I have been in your Slack for some time, i can vouch that you guys seem to be one of the more transparent teams. Munti @btcmacroecon We already kind of have a trading floor for commodities. We have a fully working marketplace. In one of the comming updates we will also add templates for auctions. dzimbeck BitHalo is still active but it's worth pointing out that all new templates and features will be withheld from BitHalo to give BitBay maximum impact Bitbay1 uploaded this image: m2.jpg 1 Comment btcmacroecon i like the concept and not of ebay as a seller given their fees, or as a buyer with paypal. ulyssessyoungo lol those boots dzimbeck Ebays biggest problem is scam buyers dzimbeck no way to stop it dzimbeck In our platform that is not going to happen dzimbeck And let me stress something else dzimbeck This is Bitcoin dzimbeck which is anonymous dzimbeck so scams are more prevalent dzimbeck which is why it shocks me dzimbeck that this isn't the industry standard for escrow btcmacroecon but the man is wise dzimbeck Plus we don't have to deal with arbiters dzimbeck the analogy is you go to court... would you trust 12 peers and a judge to decide your fate? dzimbeck I wouldn't dzimbeck A witness where it's your word against theirs dzimbeck This is a better system. There is no judge dzimbeck just perp and victim btcmacroecon i havent been to court once where the truth was spoken dzimbeck empowering victims a little bit more dzimbeck "instant karma" dzimbeck That is exactly why I made this btcmacroecon i had proof attorney was lying but judge refused to let me play it as i ha proo dzimbeck Oh jesus dzimbeck that sucks btcmacroecon i was going to hit play in courtroom but she freaked out on the bench said i would not play it in her courtroom! V01D Would there be any backlash against the name bitbay in the future if a company like eBay felt threatened? dzimbeck Yeah also realize that losing a deposit makes a victim feel like the person who screwed them paid for it btcmacroecon protected the liar dzimbeck I don't think so but we can always rebrand dzimbeck there is an exchange called BitBay too dzimbeck timing was almost the same as ours btcmacroecon 591 price on bay on bittrex dzimbeck we had an international presence first dzimbeck As for price Munti @VO1D I don't see how ebay could do something about that. But then I'm not a lawyer dzimbeck This IS a trading channel V01D I see, thank you dzimbeck we should talk about the rolling peg btcmacroecon i sold all bay at 860 dzimbeck So when the project started I wasn't the founder btcmacroecon pissed i could have got 870 dzimbeck so I knew there had to be a way to protect investors in case something bad happened Munti LOL dzimbeck So the rolling peg was designed dzimbeck similar to an economic crawling peg dzimbeck The way it works is this: we can control the supply of the coin by simply freezing it dzimbeck so as most coins only inflate dzimbeck this coin does both dzimbeck it inflates and deflates yin :open_mouth: dzimbeck but it only freezes the coins temporarily to stop dumps on the market dzimbeck and it does so exactly fairly codnose It's been a bad 24 hours for lots of alts. It will bounce back @btcmacroecon ;) dzimbeck coins have memory in this system so each coin knows it's own liquidity funkedelics proof to back up your claim? Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face: Posted in #trading_altcoinsToday at 7:09 PM dzimbeck reddit btcmacroecon yah i hope to reposition on this coin as we speak codnose Good few days for bay recently. I'm holding since a while back dzimbeck there is proof where I fought with veritasBS from ShadowCash dzimbeck They tried to reverse my code Bitbay1 Freezing via decentralized voting? dzimbeck it was famous funkedelics link? Munti @funkedelics On reddit as David said. I'm sure we can find a link for you after this session is over dzimbeck Someone else can find it dzimbeck @funkedelics dzimbeck It is on the blackcoin subreddit btcmacroecon what are you doing to avoid illegal activity, kyc, and silk road activity? dzimbeck if you wanna look dzimbeck @btcmacroecon I have a mod key which users subscribe to dzimbeck which is handed out dzimbeck so decentralized mod i guess dzimbeck also users encrypt their IP within their orders dzimbeck so if for some reason a swat team shows up at my house I just tell them they are free to use it kimchi What is the return or refund?.. dzimbeck In theory we shouldn't need to deal with silk road type problems btcmacroecon id say get a fkn warrant, shut the door dzimbeck since we don't host anything dzimbeck That too codnose Rolling peg sounds very interesting. Is there a link here? dzimbeck But we don't live in a fair world @btcmacroecon dzimbeck USA arrested a guy in Greece who was a Russian citizen dzimbeck nonsense btcmacroecon and those that vote i big corrupt government blame trump dzimbeckhttps://bitbay.market/about/pegging/ BitBay Rolling Peg - BitBay Price volatility is cryptocurrency's biggest challenge - BitBay's rolling peg will reduce volatility by dynamically controlling supply. Learn more here. dzimbeck Never blame Trump dzimbeck blame military intelligence dzimbeck and compartmentalization Munti @codnose our site is going through a little redesign atm, but the info on the rolling peg will be back up soon btcmacroecon new vorld odor! I blame "globalism" imyb commented on Bitbay1’s file m2.jpg Is this really what it's going to look like? dzimbeck :smile: codnose Great thanks @Munti Munti LOL, it was back up (edited) dzimbeck well whatever powerful people do dzimbeck it's our job to come up with solutions like unbreakable contracts dzimbeck these contracts work in an anarchy dzimbeck literally dzimbeck The rolling peg is meant to allow low cap coins dzimbeck to thrive little_round @imyb No, it will be changed dzimbeck because the control of supply lets us force the price dzimbeck by voting on supply yin damn your product sounds awesome! but you need a redesign of your website :smile: dzimbeck so example btcmacroecon so you in essence have a dashboard already active. dzimbeck if a user has 1000 coins at 100% at .10 cents per coin WeeMan Mike joined #trading_altcoins. dzimbeck and the network deflates to 50% dzimbeck he would have 500 coins liquid and 500 frozen Munti @btcmacroecon What do you mean by dashboard? dzimbeck he can move the liquid coins as much as he wants btcmacroecon you have a marketplace or dashboard like ebay has basically? dzimbeck the frozen coins he can move but with a penalty a one month delay Munti @btcmacroecon Yes (edited) dzimbeck which makes a secondary market for trading frozen coins codnose Like the eBay dashboard right @btcmacroecon ? dzimbeck at a more speculative value btcmacroecon you just need to expand on it with volume Bitbay1https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9hEpu8gZMzEcP22rMYX0Iw/videos YouTube BitBay Official BitBay youtube channel dzimbeck we can assume his liquid coins would be worth about double than before if demand is about the same btcmacroecon do you offer any affiliate programs to market for that volume? dzimbeck Good idea dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Working on that now dzimbeck We have just started discussions about incentives dzimbeck @kimchi please elaborate dzimbeck return or refund on what? kimchi I bought shoes. But what if a brick comes? There is an image on top that sells shoes. dzimbeck Then seller would pay 100 dollars dzimbeck if you blow it up dzimbeck so negotiate a refund dzimbeck the seller will most definitely reconsider dzimbeck since he doesn't want to pay 100 dollars to be a joker dzimbeck You can cancel contracts dzimbeck returning all funds Anoeng joined #trading_altcoins. dzimbeck upon mutual consent dzimbeck everything is consent btcmacroecon does bitbay have the ability to accept payment in a variety of cryptocurrency? I think that's where volume could come in, or a gateway to exchange tokens and buyer / seller can arrive at payment and yet can be worked via bitbay smart contract or escrowing? could that work, is it possible, if not care to explore it? dzimbeck the way a contract should be dzimbeck Yes codnose Ha that's awesome actually. Why would a seller send anything else knowing they'd lose their deposit ? dzimbeck You can use Ark to pay dzimbeck Bay is only used as a deposit dzimbeck you might have to specify the coins you would accept in your contract ulyssessyoungo nice ulyssessyoungo i like that btcmacroecon and what about dogecoin for example? codnose Yeah that's cool ulyssessyoungo Definitely adds to the viability of the platform codnose Whatcoin? Lol dzimbeck yeah codnose it forces honesty dzimbeck and the same for employees Munti @btcmacroecon Also, our platform is very broad. You can use it for almost anything. We already had all kinds of things sold there from pins to property. Many coins have also been sold there. Our market is like an improved localbitcoin. Binary opptions is also you can find on our marketoplace regularly. And I'm sure we havent even scrathced the surface yet. In the future we will have API's so ppl can tailor their own version of our marketplace. dzimbeck if I hire someone using this system btcmacroecon ok deposit only, making more sense now ulyssessyoungo BAY as a currency would certainly take off best after the Rolling Peg dzimbeck they better do what they say ulyssessyoungo but in the meantime that's awesome that you can use other coins dzimbeck I actually used to it motivate myself Bitbay1 Why not sell Ark for Bay on the market :slightly_smiling_face: Bitbay1 or Btc dzimbeck had my friend blow up my money if I didn't do my daily errands dzimbeck imagine having 10 grand deterrent dzimbeck :smile: bivins Greetings dzimbeck You can trade coins on the market dzimbeck especially microtrade codnose You bought some land using this you said @Munti ? dzimbeck but it is slow dzimbeck for that I recommend atomic trade dzimbeck It's not that fast paced trading that traders demand... dzimbeck but codnose No worries about losing any money ? I take it it wasn't just a few dollars dzimbeck Someone did sell IOTA on our platform dzimbeck and did lots of deals Bitbay1 yes before IOTA came into the exchanges Munti @codnose Yes I did. Got the paperwork in the mail today. 5 acres of land in California. (And I live in Norway) (edited) prasanth can we stake coins in the market client?? Munti Yes dzimbeck Staking is done using 2 keys dzimbeck so you can actually stake over LAN too tranzer Could BitBay somehow bridge with Ark and offer their services to Ark users? dzimbeck using 2 computers dzimbeck it's called "cold staking" dzimbeck no hacking is possible here dzimbeck ever dzimbeck you can hide keys in images btcmacroecon ok i admit failure on setting up CoinURL as I tried to set up online store, to sell some code, my wildlife photography, and rocks and gems I prospect, I'd like to set up BitBay on an Iframe into my site, and capture affiliate biz. Sounds like this is almost possible, and I could sell my jade right through my site, at least offer it up, right? dzimbeck and have dual passwords and use 2 computers to sign transactions automated Munti @tranzer We would have to look into that. But I don't see any reason why we could not. dzimbeck We need a web wallet dzimbeck that is our biggest challenge dzimbeck since I made this with a "security first" attitude dzimbeck being a cryptographer (edited) dzimbeck I forgot the reason to make everything web based Munti @btcmacroecon We are not quite there yet, but yes, that's where we're going dzimbeck Didn't want to sacrifice security dzimbeck now I realize there is a need for web based platforms codnose I follow you on twitter and saw that mentioned the other day. It's coming soon? @dzimbeck dzimbeck that sacrifice a little security for speed and ease of use in phones dzimbeck A web wallet? codnose Yeah dzimbeck Yeah well we will have a basic web wallet very soon dzimbeck its actually a very nice one (edited) dzimbeck But I was referring to a market wallet dzimbeck one with the full contract implementation dzimbeck we hope to do that after the peg is successful Munti Keep an eye on our next weekly update (sunday) for roadmap for the rest of this year. You will get details there dzimbeck since it's more important to deliver on what I promise dzimbeck than to make up new features dzimbeck aka "scope creep" a programmers worst enemy mergatroid Hello dzimbeck Hi mergatroid Please comment on recent news around SEC delistings on bittrex - what steps are you taking to communicate with user base as to whether your a security and what you plan to do if you are classified as such dzimbeck The rolling peg is the priority dzimbeck Since Tether is unreliable dzimbeck this is a decentralized peg dzimbeck that isn't fixed at a certain price dzimbeck so it can "roll" the price up codnose Sounds like you have a lot of nice things planned :) dzimbeck so it starts at say 5 cents dzimbeck and slowly rolls up to 10 cents dzimbeck over X amount of time dzimbeck after that we would love to focus on web implementations dzimbeck however anyone who wants to plug this into their site should contact us, we can set up some API calls for sure Munti @mergatroid I just became aware of the SEC issue on Bittrex today, and have not had time to study it. But going by the little I did read, it doesn't seem to be a problem for us. mergatroid Ok - so no plan so far understand dzimbeck we aren't a security dzimbeck because we don't pay dividends mergatroid Thankyou codnose Just on your website now @dzimbeck @Munti dr10 OK we are approaching 1 hour mark. If you guys have any questions left, go ahead. Anything bitbay.market team would like to add or tell - feel free to do. V01D Thanks for your time bitbay team dzimbeck Thanks for doing this! It was fun. And maybe I have a few questions about Ark later dzimbeck :slightly_smiling_face: codnose Looking good. Thanks for stopping by :) dzimbeck Any other questions? dzimbeck Perhaps regarding the peg, contracts or markets? Boris Is dzimbeck a god? dzimbeck :smile: dzimbeck no dzimbeck I bleed codnose Haha I'd heard that too codnose At least in coding terms lol dr10Thank you David and Bjørn for taking the time to do this AMA! All the best with the project and you are always welcome to hang around our Slack Munti If anyone wants more info, you are welcome to our slack http://bitbay.market/wp-login.php?action=slack-invitation dzimbeck Honestly a little bit of effort is all these things take dzimbeck Thanks dr10 Munti Thanks for having us. This was fun
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